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Old 02-01-2010, 11:44 AM   #31
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Energy Star Qualified Asphalt roofing shingles?


How did we get from Energy Star qualified shingles to arguing about which melts snow faster? I could care less about how fast snow melts, only seen it a couple of times down here in south central Texas. But I would like to know what shingles dissipate heat faster. Also which ones are hail resistant. I am considering a metal roof next time though. Lots of people around here have them for their hail resistance and heat reflectivity.

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Old 02-01-2010, 01:27 PM   #32
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Energy Star Qualified Asphalt roofing shingles?


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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
What attic ? I don't have an attic


I want the shingles to soak up heat & melt snow
I apologize I must be missing the point Dave, I thought I was helping clear up the misconception that a hot attic space is better for the winter.

but now I'm curious why is it important to you to melt the snow on your roof?

Is it because of snow load? I assume not because you mentioned it usually blows off.

Again I'm sorry for the confusion. I just want the people who come online for information to not walk away confused and with misinformation.
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Old 02-01-2010, 02:07 PM   #33
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Energy Star Qualified Asphalt roofing shingles?


I prefer a roof without snow
With as much as 90" of snow in some years I'd rather not have any chance of any build up
Why would you want snow to build up on your roof ?
Sun hits the back of my house & warms up the siding - slate blue
That warm air rises up into the soffits (2' overhang), I've measured 50 degree air on a sunny day

I think people with uninsulated attics are missing the boat
Which would you prefer, a space that can dip to single digit temps, or a space that stays 40-60 ?
My 2nd floor is under renovation, not fully insulated & not sheetrocked
The ceiling of the 1st floor has R25
The 2nd floor stays about 40-60 degrees depending upon the outside temp
I do not expect to really heat the 2nd floor once finished
I'll be happy if it never goes over 60 in the winter (wife won't )
For heated air to "get out" it has to go thru the 1st floor ceiling w/R25
Tyen it has to go thru the 2nd floor ceiling with R38

You say to vent an attic & keep it cold
Is a basement vented & kept cold ?
No, but my basement will have more moisture then any attic

My garage will be insulated & unheated, I expect it to stay 40-60 out there
My 3 season porch will be insulated & unheated, I expect warmer Temps
I have a greenhouse off the back of the house, still some work to do
On a sunny 20 degree day it will go over 50 out there
Above 30 degree day & it goes into upper 50's
In the early Spring I have to take down the storm windows & crakc a window or it will go over 90....record is 107+
My House is a Cape & there is knee wall storage on the front of the house
The entire area is insulated (against the outside & heated space) & sheetrocked & stays warm

My new addition has a walkup attic, there will be insulation in the floor, walls, rafter space (to the peak) & the ceiling
No plans to heat it but I also expect this area to stay warm
Building a house with buffer areas just makes sense

In the 1st year we lived here we went thru 3 tanks of oil
In the past 3 years we have gone thru 3 tanks of oil
Insulating buffer areas, & creating additional buffer areas pays off

The original reason for this thread was finding out about Energy Star shingles
I was hoping with 30% off they might be less then reg shingles
No such luck it seems
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Old 02-01-2010, 02:28 PM   #34
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Energy Star Qualified Asphalt roofing shingles?


Your attic is supposed to be the same or very close to the temp outside, if everything is done correctly.

Insulating to the rafters isn't a good idea unless it has baffles and air space, wich I'm sure you know Dave.

As far as the energy credit shingles.......the cost is higher in the end, but you do get a lifetime shingle. That is unless you go with white 3 tabs. It is good to have darker shingles in the north because it helps with melting the ice off the roof. I see no benefit from a white shingle in the north, IF everything is vented properly.

I really don't buy into shingles absorbing heat and distributing it down into the attic space. If you tear off shingles that are hot, the underlayment is no warmer than the outside temp until the sun hits it, but only if the attic is vented properly.
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Old 02-01-2010, 02:37 PM   #35
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Energy Star Qualified Asphalt roofing shingles?


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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
You say to vent an attic & keep it cold
Is a basement vented & kept cold ?
No, but my basement will have more moisture then any attic
You're not reading his post correctly. When he talked about venting vs unventing, he is referring to people who block off all vents in their attic so that it will stay warmer. That is not a good idea, IMO. You want your attic to help retain household heat, but you don't want to stuff it shut. You need insulation and ventilation up there.
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Old 02-01-2010, 02:53 PM   #36
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Energy Star Qualified Asphalt roofing shingles?


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Your attic is supposed to be the same or very close to the temp outside, if everything is done correctly.

Insulating to the rafters isn't a good idea unless it has baffles and air space, wich I'm sure you know Dave
I don't agree with this at all (1st sentence)
Run the vents to the peak (rideg vent) & put up sheetrock
Allow the attic that is now closed off from the outside to rise to whatever temp it will
The sheathing & roof are vented
There is no need to vent the attic space any more then a closet on an outside wall in your house

I'm not saying the heat will radiate down into the attic
Heat from the house will rise into this area

As far as lifetime shingles do you really buy that ?
Or is their "warranty" such that trying to get a replacement roof 30 years from now they will tell you to take a hike ?
IE a pro-rated warranty will give you very little $$ & won't pay for labor, I&W, vents/flashing etc
Is there any shingle that will last a "lifetime"
Or are they simply playing the odds figuring the vast majority will not be in the house 15 years later ?
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Old 02-01-2010, 03:26 PM   #37
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Energy Star Qualified Asphalt roofing shingles?


As long as the roof and sheathing are vented you are fine. Just make sure you get adequate insulation (R38 or greater here). In your case you are not having an attic. You are creating more living space. Dead air space and no make up air isn't a good idea though. This area may get very moist, but that is more of a question for a HVAC Contractor.

For the "lifetime" shingle I was just referring to the name. No one has proof that even a 30 year shingle will last the 30 years anyhow, yet. The "year rating" they state depends on many factors, not just calendar years. The "lifetime" rating is simply a relabeled 50 year. 25's went to 30, 30's went to 40's, and 50 are now "lifetime".

Last edited by MJW; 02-01-2010 at 03:29 PM.
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Old 02-01-2010, 03:35 PM   #38
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Energy Star Qualified Asphalt roofing shingles?


I agree with you on the ventilation, I vent every rafter space
The attic will be used for storage, no rooms, no heat, not listed as living space or considered such by the Inspector
This space actually has 3 windows & 2 venting skylights
Plus will have a "shaft" much like a skylight shaft leading up to the cupola
It also will have 2 windows that face into the cathedral ceiling of the great room

The design being to allow hot air to rise in the summer naturally up &out the windows & then the skylights
In the winter it will be totally closed off
So for heat from the great room to exit the house it must go thru R38 in the GR ceiling....then R19 in the ceiling of the attic....then thru R38 along the rafters above the ceiling
For my knee wall storage heat has to go thru the R25 in the ceiling of the 1st floor, then thru another layer of R25 in the rafter space
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Old 02-01-2010, 04:00 PM   #39
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Energy Star Qualified Asphalt roofing shingles?


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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
I prefer a roof without snow

Why would you want snow to build up on your roof ?

Well Dave it's not that you want snow on your roof so much as you want your attic to be close to the outside temperature. snow is just a good indicator in the winter.

The first reason is because of ice damming. In Canada and most cold climates it is a serious problem. (it occurs by having snow melt over the attic area because of built up heat and then freeze at the overhang. Water can then pool and travel under the shingles and if not protected by an ice & water product leak directly into the house.)

The second reason is moisture and mould. If your attic space warms up during the day with the sun but when the sun is no longer hitting the roof, the sheathing becomes cold first and the warm air in the attic space will then condense on the sheathing and/or moisture in the air will drop down to the insulation and again moist or wet insulation is no good. Dark moist areas are highly prone to mould growth.

Dave, in your case you have a finished attic and have insulated and vented the cathedral ceiling well and as long as it is ventilated properly you shouldn't have a problem.

When I speak of attic I mean the area between your ceiling and your roof sheathing. Not a finished living space. And in most cases (not every) it makes a lot more sense to add insulation to your attic, because an R-25 space then a open area and then another R-25 space does not equal R-50 but that is off topic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
You say to vent an attic & keep it cold
Is a basement vented & kept cold ?
No, but my basement will have more moisture then any attic
Your basement shouldn't have moisture in it either. If it is, it is because you have an older house not built to today's standards or you have a problem that is allowing moisture into the basement. On the topic the living spaces in your house is and must be vented. The HVAC guys can say more about it, but effectively older homes are vented by doors, windows, and drafts. But todays R-2000 homes are so air tight they need an air makeup system to bring in outside air.
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Old 02-01-2010, 04:10 PM   #40
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Energy Star Qualified Asphalt roofing shingles?


There is something at work known a "block body" radiation" were heat is drawn to darker surfaces. This applies to surface coverd with snow because some of the heat from the sun penetrates the snow and heats the roof surface. This is in addition to the normal transpiration, which proceeds faster if the roof surface is warmer. Transpiration is not melting; it is a change from solid (ice) to vapor (air).

It is well known that black surface absorb heat and we can see ice melting (without salt) on asphalt streets at 0F here.

The removal of the ice or snow on a roof dramatically reduces ice dams if the gutters are not filled. I have dark brown gutters on the east side of my townhouse and the amount of ice dams is much less than the units with west facing gutters because the gutters aborb the heat at 0F before there is any appreciable melting on the roof. On the west, the snow melts before the gutters open a bit. - We only get 50" of snow (usually dry and fluffy) and it is always clear, cold and sunny after a snowfall, which may be different than some places near the great lakes or the coast. Our weather usually comes from the west or NW (Canada) and the storms south of us come from the south or southwest and are wetter snow with more moisture.

Every place has its own conditions, so one answer does not fit all.

Dick
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Old 02-01-2010, 04:11 PM   #41
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Energy Star Qualified Asphalt roofing shingles?


But that's my point..the attic should be finished against cold/heat & only the roof deck vented

Why would you want single digit temp space above your living space ?
I hardly consider my knee wall space as living space, unless you are less then 2' tall
Nor would I consider the new attic space livable
Especially the area that will be above the ceiling - less then 2' tall

We have a high water table around here
Even with sealed concrete foundation enough water vapor comes in thru the basement
In addition the basement stays cooler in the summer & warmer air will condense on the cooler walls
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Old 02-01-2010, 05:08 PM   #42
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Energy Star Qualified Asphalt roofing shingles?


For what it's worth we just had our roof compltely replaced right before Thanksgiving. The availability and cost of the energy star rated shingles was ridiculus and would have ended up costing incrementally more than the tax credit I would have received.

I am in the midwest (IL) and was told the same thing about weanting darker shingles for snow melting.
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Old 02-01-2010, 06:54 PM   #43
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Any way you look at your situation Dave, you will have a ton of moisture in that attic space that will create frost and mold on the insulation or poly in that area. That is unless you make it a habitable space within HVAC codes and your heating/ventialtion system. By the time air gets through all your insulation it won't be warm anyhow. If heat traveled through insulation and still has heat left, our siding wouldn't last more than a couple years. Just doesn't work that way.
Once the area is closed off (in winter), it won't stay hardly above freezing, making it essentially a waste of time and material.
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Old 02-01-2010, 06:56 PM   #44
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Energy Star Qualified Asphalt roofing shingles?


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For what it's worth we just had our roof compltely replaced right before Thanksgiving. The availability and cost of the energy star rated shingles was ridiculus and would have ended up costing incrementally more than the tax credit I would have received.

I am in the midwest (IL) and was told the same thing about weanting darker shingles for snow melting.
We went through the numbers a few years ago with a similar situation. It was using impact resistant shingles and saving a percentage on homeowners insurance. This was a big deal with the hail storms. Anyways, it didn't make up for the savings. The added cost of the shingles ate it up, and then some........
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Old 02-01-2010, 07:02 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by MJW View Post
Any way you look at your situation Dave, you will have a ton of moisture in that attic space that will create frost and mold on the insulation or poly in that area. That is unless you make it a habitable space within HVAC codes and your heating/ventialtion system. By the time air gets through all your insulation it won't be warm anyhow. If heat traveled through insulation and still has heat left, our siding wouldn't last more than a couple years. Just doesn't work that way.
Once the area is closed off (in winter), it won't stay hardly above freezing, making it essentially a waste of time and material.
My 2nd floor is not heated at present, hasn't been for over 6 years
No mold, no moisture, no AC or dehumidifier
Knee wall storage has existed for decades, no mold no moisture
Both areas stay well above freezing

Friends been living in his house for over 10 years with his attic space sealed against the outside
No mold, no moisture
Also well above freezing, probably in the 50's

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