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FatAugie 08-03-2007 06:46 AM

DIY roof replacement questions
 
Hi Everyone,

OK, going to do my own roof. Stop laughing.


GAF materials from start to finish. 4/12 gable roof with nothing except 3 stink vents to flash. Going with Timberline Ultra shingles, metric size (that's what they offer in this area, no choice). Been talking with Ed about proper ventilation, so that part is covered. I have a few questions.

Drip edge under the Ice and Water guard stuff? The instructions say so, but I thought I read a conflicting statement somewhere else, saying put above the I&W.

Starter strip made from the Timberline's or should I spring for a starter strip? Also, starter strip along the rake edges? Or is Roof cement (thin application, 4" wide) to help seal the rake against wind better?

Would you run I&C along the rake? Or is that overkill? What about at the ridge?

That's all I can think of for now.

Thanks,

Tony

RippySkippy 08-03-2007 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatAugie (Post 56014)
Drip edge under the Ice and Water guard stuff?

Right. Think like water, don't give it a ledge to go in or under.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatAugie (Post 56014)
...starter strip along the rake edges? Or is Roof cement (thin application, 4" wide) to help seal the rake against wind better?

I wouldn't do either. In addition to the rest of the nailing, put one about 1-1/2" in from the edge. Unless your in a high wind area, the normal seal down will work fine. If you'd feel better, you could put a dot of cement on the tab to help hold it down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatAugie (Post 56014)
Would you run I&C along the rake? Or is that overkill? What about at the ridge?

Yes. Some use a half width I&W up the rake. Personally, I use full width. I wouldn't do the ridge. As long as you run your shingles and tar paper over the ridge, you won't have a problem.

Good luck...wish I could help!

Malcolm 08-03-2007 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatAugie (Post 56014)
Hi Everyone,

OK, going to do my own roof. Stop laughing.


GAF materials from start to finish. 4/12 gable roof with nothing except 3 stink vents to flash. Going with Timberline Ultra shingles, metric size (that's what they offer in this area, no choice). Been talking with Ed about proper ventilation, so that part is covered. I have a few questions.

Drip edge under the Ice and Water guard stuff? The instructions say so, but I thought I read a conflicting statement somewhere else, saying put above the I&W.

Starter strip made from the Timberline's or should I spring for a starter strip? Also, starter strip along the rake edges? Or is Roof cement (thin application, 4" wide) to help seal the rake against wind better?

Would you run I&C along the rake? Or is that overkill? What about at the ridge?

That's all I can think of for now.

Thanks,

Tony


I am doing my own roof too. Let me tell you, it is 10 times more work than I expected. I have about 5 squares left on a 24 square job. I think GAF Timberline is their laminate line. You should use the sovereign 3 tabs for your starter and ridge caps. You could buy Timbertex for your ridges though, if you like that look. I ran ice and water at the eves. I ran it uner the drip edge. You should run all of you felt and ice and water under if you are going to cement. I went that route also. I used about a 6 in spread at the eves and rakes. I didn't waste any money using ice and water at the rakes only at the eves. Good luck

Ed the Roofer 08-03-2007 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatAugie (Post 56014)

GAF materials from start to finish. 4/12 gable roof with nothing except 3 stink vents to flash. Going with Timberline Ultra shingles, metric size (that's what they offer in this area, no choice). Been talking with Ed about proper ventilation, so that part is covered. I have a few questions.

1. Drip edge under the Ice and Water guard stuff? The instructions say so, but I thought I read a conflicting statement somewhere else, saying put above the I&W.

2. Starter strip made from the Timberline's or should I spring for a starter strip? Also, starter strip along the rake edges? Or is Roof cement (thin application, 4" wide) to help seal the rake against wind better?

3. Would you run I&C along the rake? Or is that overkill? What about at the ridge?

That's all I can think of for now.

Thanks,

Tony

Answers

1. The best way to install the Gutter Apron Drip Edge, which is different than the gable edge Drip Edge, aka ODE, is to install the Ice and Water shield first, with the bottom 2-4 inches going down onto the fascia boards behind the back side of the gutter. (It is easy to loosen the fasteners on about half the gutter and let it hang, but not twist, so you can install the I & W shield.

Now, install the Gutter Apron Drip Edge aluminum metal flashings.

Now, take the roll of I & W shield, and with a sharp stanly straight blade knife, lay a 3"-4" board across the 3 foot wide roll at the very end and cut off enough 3 foot long sections which are now 3"-4" wide and cut very straight from using the board as a straight edge, and cover the top exposed portion of the Gutter Apron Drip Edge metal flashing.

Now, all of your bases are covered for any potential ice damming leak.

PS; Since you are taking the original 3 foot wide roll and extending about 4" down the fascia, make sure you still have enough material to provide the correct amount of coverage onto the decking as local codes and common sense requires.

I suggest going a "MINIMUM" of 24 " past the location of the interior wall where the heated interior environment is located. Some codes state only 12" past the interior heated wall location, but I have still seen Ice Damming leaks occur further up the slope than just the minimum of 12".

Now is the time to do it right. Don't be cheap now and regret it later.

2. Never use an architctural field shingle as the starter strip.

If you use 3-tab shingles, you must cut off the tabs very straight and then align the sealant strips toward the perimeter edge. Since you will have a lot of cutting to do with this, you may end up with some raggedy edges.

I strongly suggest purchasing the pre-cut 7" starter strip shingles to save on all of the cutting. The end result will be to save you a lot of time and not add much expense to the project and to have a cleaner and straighter looking appearance to the gable and eave edges where this will be seen.

If you are in a high wind area, then small dabs of roofing cement frem a caulking gun tube versus a full troweling of 4" or so wide roofing cement. If you are not in a high wind area and just want to be a little on the cautious side, then make sure you add additional nails to the exterior perimeter for both the starteer strip shingles and the actual field shingles.

3. I personally think that I & W shield along the gable edges is over kill, but the Grace brochure shows it as a desired location to include. If the ODE perimeter edge sheet metal is installed properly and you have the required 1/2" to 3/4" overhanging extension of the starter and field shingles, thenm I see no need for it along the gable edges.

But, since you will be doing the labor yourself, all it costs you is the price of the materials. It's your call.

No, not at the ridge.

Ed

FatAugie 08-04-2007 05:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RippySkippy (Post 56017)

Good luck...wish I could help!


HA! I wish you could too. I'd even make strip steaks on the grill and all the beer you could drink when you're done for the day.

Thanks for the info. We do have pretty good winds here so I think I need a little something extra at the edge.

FatAugie 08-04-2007 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer (Post 56114)
Answers

1. The best way to install the Gutter Apron Drip Edge, which is different than the gable edge Drip Edge, aka ODE, is to install the Ice and Water shield first, with the bottom 2-4 inches going down onto the fascia boards behind the back side of the gutter. (It is easy to loosen the fasteners on about half the gutter and let it hang, but not twist, so you can install the I & W shield.


I don't have a gutter at the moment, but plan on installing them "someday".
Can I install the gutter apron drip edge at a later time with no problems?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer (Post 56114)
Now, install the Gutter Apron Drip Edge aluminum metal flashings.

Now, take the roll of I & W shield, and with a sharp stanly straight blade knife, lay a 3"-4" board across the 3 foot wide roll at the very end and cut off enough 3 foot long sections which are now 3"-4" wide and cut very straight from using the board as a straight edge, and cover the top exposed portion of the Gutter Apron Drip Edge metal flashing.

Now, all of your bases are covered for any potential ice damming leak.

PS; Since you are taking the original 3 foot wide roll and extending about 4" down the fascia, make sure you still have enough material to provide the correct amount of coverage onto the decking as local codes and common sense requires.

I suggest going a "MINIMUM" of 24 " past the location of the interior wall where the heated interior environment is located. Some codes state only 12" past the interior heated wall location, but I have still seen Ice Damming leaks occur further up the slope than just the minimum of 12".

Now is the time to do it right. Don't be cheap now and regret it later.

That is the one thing that won't happen. I've spec'd for a top of the line project, I'm not going to try and save a buck now. The one challenge will be, with a 4 foot overhang on the front...I forsee many rolls being applied. No problem, what's another couple hundred to get it done right? I'm spending over 2K on materials, busting my butt to do it myself....to go cheap now would be silly.



Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer (Post 56114)
2. Never use an architectural field shingle as the starter strip.

If you use 3-tab shingles, you must cut off the tabs very straight and then align the sealant strips toward the perimeter edge. Since you will have a lot of cutting to do with this, you may end up with some raggedy edges.

I strongly suggest purchasing the pre-cut 7" starter strip shingles to save on all of the cutting. The end result will be to save you a lot of time and not add much expense to the project and to have a cleaner and straighter looking appearance to the gable and eave edges where this will be seen.

If you are in a high wind area, then small dabs of roofing cement from a caulking gun tube versus a full troweling of 4" or so wide roofing cement. If you are not in a high wind area and just want to be a little on the cautious side, then make sure you add additional nails to the exterior perimeter for both the starter strip shingles and the actual field shingles.

Actually, I was thinking first to use the GAF rolls of starter strip, then I was thinking of using the extra architectural shingles for the starter, now I'm leaning back to using the rolls.

I bought probably 3 square extra to make sure I had enough to complete the job. This way, I'm not on the roof trying to figure out how I can get to the supply yard for the extra bundle I'm missing to finish the job. Also, I plan on keeping a spare bundle in the garage for any repairs that may need to take place. This way, I have the correct color match. The yard said they'd credit any bundles returned so it seems like a no-brainer to over order.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer (Post 56114)
3. I personally think that I & W shield along the gable edges is over kill, but the Grace brochure shows it as a desired location to include. If the ODE perimeter edge sheet metal is installed properly and you have the required 1/2" to 3/4" overhanging extension of the starter and field shingles, then I see no need for it along the gable edges.

But, since you will be doing the labor yourself, all it costs you is the price of the materials. It's your call.

No, not at the ridge.

Ed

Once again, thanks for the info.

Ed the Roofer 08-04-2007 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FatAugie (Post 56147)

1. I don't have a gutter at the moment, but plan on installing them "someday".
Can I install the gutter apron drip edge at a later time with no problems?

2. Actually, I was thinking first to use the GAF rolls of starter strip, then I was thinking of using the extra architectural shingles for the starter, now I'm leaning back to using the rolls.

1. The Guter Apron sheet metal drip edge metal would be a real pain in the azz to install after the shingle are already in place. You need to nail the top portion of the sheet metal, which would require the lifting up and bending backwards of the starter shingles and the field architectural shingles.

The G.A. only costs about .42 cents to .50 cents per foot, so install it as I suggested with the Ice and Water Shield under it and stripped in over the top edge.

2. The choice is yours, but on the starter "ROLLS" I have used in the past, there was a minor tendency for them to get wrinkles or a buckled appearance to them while rolling them out. I much more prefer the 7" starter strip shingles for the proper starter material on a new roofing installation.

Ed

FatAugie 08-04-2007 09:24 AM

1. Ok, sorry for being dense, but instead of the drip edge? Or in addition to it?


2. Got it. Thanks!

Ed the Roofer 08-04-2007 10:35 AM

It might just be a difference in semantics, but the Gutter Apron is a drip edge sheet metal flashing specifically made for the eave edges of a home.

The bend is at a slight angle higher than a 90 degree bend to accomodate the pitch of the roof.

A regular T-style or ODE, (Overhanging Drip Edge), and it goes by other names as well, is a piece with about a 1 3/4" leg going down the fascia with a kick-out bend at the bottom. The bend is exactly a 90 degee, and the top has about a 3/8" tightly crimped edge which overhangs past the fascia board providing support for the newly installed shingles which overhang over the gable edge of the home.

Ed

AaronB 08-04-2007 10:43 AM

Right on, Ed!

I despise seeing an ODE on the gutter edge. Makes my skin crawl.

Ed the Roofer 08-04-2007 11:06 AM

I immediately think, jack-leg gypsy contractor or ill advised home owner every time I see the ODE at the eave edge.

Plus, the Gutter Apron extends down about a 1/4 to 1/2 inch farther down for a better seal into an intended gutter trough.

Ed

RooferJim 08-04-2007 12:46 PM

If the roof is a 4/12 pitch it is considerd to be low slope and should have full coverage of Ice&water shield on the whole thing. Starters on the rake yes.



RooferJim
www.jbennetteroofing.com

Ed the Roofer 08-04-2007 02:03 PM

Jim,

The NRCA defines a steep slope roof as one that is greater than a 3/12 pitch.

I disagree that a 4/12 would require 100 % coverage with Ice and Water Shield membrane. I would use it judiciously along all of the gutter or eave edges though, ensuring that the membrane gets installed to a point of at least 24" past the heated interior wall dividing line.

Ed

FatAugie 08-04-2007 05:50 PM

As it turns out, on the front of the house 24" into the warm area is almost half the roof anyway.

Thanks for the gutter edging info. Until now, I thought drip edge (ODE) was for any edge other than the ridge, I didn't even know gutter edge existed. I'm embarrassed I am that naive about it.

Ed the Roofer 08-05-2007 09:27 AM

Don't be.

At least 20-25% of all roofs that I inspect for an estimate either contain no Gutter Apron drip edge flashing or have the incorrectly instlled ODE drip edge flashing installed instead.

As Aaron stated previously, it makes my skin crawl. :eek:

Ed


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