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Old 07-19-2009, 03:01 PM   #16
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In desperate need of professional help


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Originally Posted by rwa View Post
There is a poster on this site, Ed the Roofer. Hopefully he will respond, I've seen numerous post from him and his opinion should be of great value.

Ed, if you're out there, can you offer an opinion?

I've read a few post on this forum and have a couple people I would lik to respond on this,Ed being one of them.I was going to PM them the post to see if they would respond,but no one excepts PMs.
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Old 07-19-2009, 04:36 PM   #17
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You must have clicked a different function than the PM, because you clicked the "Add A Friend" function, but this is the first i have been online since you originally posted yesterday.

RWA is very correct in how to approach this situation.

Stop all work and send a Certified Letter with Return Receipt Requested.

Start taking all notes and times and dates and whom you speak with for documentation.

Get proposals from other contractors that have been established and use local experienced roofers for their crew, which may be hard, since your area was deluged with transient workers looking to cash in on the extent of existing damages needing repairs made.

You may or may not have to go to small claims court, but you also may be able to just get the contractor to back off.

Whatever price it costs for the new contractor to finish the work, Not Including the additional costs of the decking repairs, which would have been an extra fee from the original contractor also, you allow them to keep the difference in what it will cost you.

You may have to go to court to get a portion of your funds paid already to get reimbursed back to you, but if they you and they do not come to an agreeable amount, then court is the resolution process, where everyone will lose because of the time and aggravation it will take.

Bottom line is, you do not want them to continue the performance of this contract.

They "May" be entitled, not only to the cost difference calculated after you get other proposals, but also "Possibly" an amount for lost profit. I, personally would not allow that argument to have any merit, due to the shoddy workmanship, but they may feel it is deserved.

If no resolution is forthcoming, then I would contact every consumer protection agency and the TV and Radio News Media outlets who do consumer rip-off reports and see if they would be interested in your story.

Even if they are not, use the fact that you will be contacting all of those entities to get public exposure to point out there poor contracting abilities, which may make them sing a different tune as far as being ameniable to a resolution that you can live with.

Remember, neither party will be 100% happy with the resolution agreement, but it still will have closure and add to a lesson learned.

Get references and check with those customers for your next contractor choice.

Ed
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Old 07-19-2009, 05:58 PM   #18
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Thank you Ed,I will have my wife send the letter to them in the morning.

Do we have a right to keep all the material left at our home to have something to show for the $4000 tied up in the mess and to help with the expenses of installing the new roof (we cant leave our roof like it is now)? My wife will be calling around tomorrow to get a retail price on the materials that are there unused and I am willing to deduct that price from the $4000 we have spent on this already.
77 total packs of shingles
2 whirlies
6 rolls of felt not opened and 3 or 4 with some used out of them,30#
18 strips of the drip pan
1 box of round plasticap 200 ct nails
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Old 07-19-2009, 06:03 PM   #19
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I'm not a roofer & never had to work out a problems as described
So I can't really add much to what Ed has stated
I would say that you should "secure" the materials that are still there
Possible they may decide to come back & take everything
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Old 07-19-2009, 06:24 PM   #20
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Now the picture gets muddier.

Legally, materials that are already affixed to your home can not be removed.

Since you seem intent on not allowing them to finish the job, due to incorrect performance and procedures, they may feel that the unused shingles belong to them, as well as the plywood delivered.

But, you have paid them 50% of the contract sum upfront, which May or May Not be a fair evaluation for the materials and the labor supplied thus far.

The cloudier the picture gets, the less chance for both parties to be on the same page as far as coming to a mutual agreement.

You and your contractor are both in a quandary right now and some very earnest discussions need to take place as soon as possible to come to a resolution.

At this point, what if it rains and creates any internal damages?

Who is at fault? The contractor for not covering up the roof or completing the job, or yourselves, for not allowing them to proceed, even though you have valid reasons to have shut them down until it gets resolved.

How detailed was the contract, IN WRITING, not the verbal comments made? Does any of the general conditions address a situation like this? If so, what is the written and prescribed method of recourse?

Unfortunately, you are in a difficult situation, which needs immediate attention and resolution.

If the contractor could convince you that a different crew with supervision could proceed and complete the work required, would that be acceptable to you? You have to think of that possibility beforehand.

Also, relating to the price for the wood replacement to be charged.....

What amount did the contract state as the price per sheet or per square foot or if it were to be done at a Time Plus Materials Cost Basis?

The amount in the contract takes precedent over any amount bandied about by any other party, including posters on this or other forums or well intentioned neighbors.

My presumption, is that the contract details, not only including the specifications for the actual job materials and methods were not spelled out, but also conditional clauses, which should be fair to both parties, which describe how unexpected situations will be dealt with and concluded to an agreed upon resolution, which should have been in the original contract.

Ed
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Old 07-19-2009, 09:57 PM   #21
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So below are the front and back of the contract that was signed. The part about the changing any bads spots was just verbal, but the written part was not upheld, because they felted over the old felt that was two layers thick. And when I called to ask why was the felt not being taken off the reply I was given was because as long as the felt still looks good they don't remove it. Even after telling them we wanted it off because that is what we were promised they were trying to talk me out of it saying thats their policy that they leave it on. And today while noone was home they came to get their trashtrailer and took some felt and the plastic off the new wood. So now the wood is unprotected and they came onto our property after they were told not to be here, that they were not wanted here anylonger. Noone ever called to say they were coming to get it either so I knew nothing until I returned and the trailer was gone.
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Old 07-20-2009, 06:32 AM   #22
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Sorry I missed your post, we had a death in the family this past Thursday thus been spending a lot more time with family members than working.
Don't have time to read through all the post because the funeral is this morning and got to get going, will read more later.

Like Ed said, this is going to get real ugly before it's over.
One of the first things a Judge is going to look at is did you 'the home owner' exhaust all efforts to settle this situation before taking legal action.

I would contact your State Attorney's office and get your complaint on file as well as ask for any known problems with the roofing contractor.
Contact the Better Business Bureau and do the same.
Get what materials that have been left by the roofers moved inside the garage/car port and covered back up.

Get together with the neighbors who witnessed the workers on your home,
take notes of how many workers were there, any 'workers' names you may have gotten/overheard, get additional photos of materials all ready installed and materials left on the ground not yet used.
"if he's using illegal labor he will show 3 employees during the legal process, so if you show he had 8 workers on your home he will have to explain who they were in court"
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:18 AM   #23
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It is time to speak to your attorney for advice.

According to the contracts terms in the general conditions page, you have agreed to obligate the dispute by arbitration, with no recourse for any further legal action.

That may, or may not hold true in your legal jurisdiction, which is why legal advice from a local attorney would be prudent.

Also, it would be beneficial if you and this contractor can resolve the issues and proceed, as I stated previously.

Ed
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:21 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed the Roofer View Post
It is time to speak to your attorney for advice.

According to the contracts terms in the general conditions page, you have agreed to obligate the dispute by arbitration, with no recourse for any further legal action.

That may, or may not hold true in your legal jurisdiction, which is why legal advice from a local attorney would be prudent.

Also, it would be beneficial if you and this contractor can resolve the issues and proceed, as I stated previously.

Ed
The funny thing about that is..... I just called the home builders that its states in the contract and the man i spoke with says, can you send me a copy of this, because this is not how we state our contracts! So I am waiting to hear from them, I didn't disclose the company name, but just covering all grounds before my husband meets with him, I also have a free consultation set for 10am tomorrow morning to help get sorted through this. It seems this will be very ugly, unless by some miracle he decides to give our money back minus the supplies we have which i have called and gotten prices from 3 lumber yards to go by. But I am very nitpicky about things and I have taken photos of everything, the water heater vent being covered with felt paper, all the way down to the empty bud light 12 pk with 4 empty cans in their trash trailer. Pictures speak a million words. I really thank all of you who have taken the time to read through all of my rambling and giving your professional advice and thoughts on everything. It is greatly appreciated!! I thank god that I have neighbors who care enough to help me out while my husband is not here. Im not a roofer but I know when I am about to be jacked.

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Old 07-20-2009, 12:09 PM   #25
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Sorry I missed your post, we had a death in the family this past Thursday thus been spending a lot more time with family members than working.
Don't have time to read through all the post because the funeral is this morning and got to get going, will read more later.

Like Ed said, this is going to get real ugly before it's over.
One of the first things a Judge is going to look at is did you 'the home owner' exhaust all efforts to settle this situation before taking legal action.

I would contact your State Attorney's office and get your complaint on file as well as ask for any known problems with the roofing contractor.
Contact the Better Business Bureau and do the same.
Get what materials that have been left by the roofers moved inside the garage/car port and covered back up.

Get together with the neighbors who witnessed the workers on your home,
take notes of how many workers were there, any 'workers' names you may have gotten/overheard, get additional photos of materials all ready installed and materials left on the ground not yet used.
"if he's using illegal labor he will show 3 employees during the legal process, so if you show he had 8 workers on your home he will have to explain who they were in court"
Sorry for your loss! Thanks for your input. Looking forward to any further comments.
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Old 07-20-2009, 12:21 PM   #26
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The first bit of advice I would give you now that you have your pictures, have someone get the roof under tarp. As far as permits where I am there is no permit required for re roofing or siding a structure. I do know that some of the gulf states have made it now a job that requires a permit. A call to your building department will answer that question.

Contracting laws vary from state to state including what company information must be on the contract, how disputes may be handled and resolved, what must be detailed in the contract, deposit amounts, progress payments, etc. You are at the point you need to contact an attorney specializing in contract law immediately. Document everything, the more you have the better your chances of getting this resolved.
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Old 07-20-2009, 01:02 PM   #27
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The first bit of advice I would give you now that you have your pictures, have someone get the roof under tarp. As far as permits where I am there is no permit required for re roofing or siding a structure. I do know that some of the gulf states have made it now a job that requires a permit. A call to your building department will answer that question.

Contracting laws vary from state to state including what company information must be on the contract, how disputes may be handled and resolved, what must be detailed in the contract, deposit amounts, progress payments, etc. You are at the point you need to contact an attorney specializing in contract law immediately. Document everything, the more you have the better your chances of getting this resolved.
Thanks, I also did that this morning as well, I called our permit office and the lady I spoke with said they are required to have a permit to do the job. I am also in the process of writing every piece of information I have from the day the salesman came to sell us the roof, leaving out no details. Like I said previously on the back of the contract in #7, I placed a call out to these folks and didn't mention the company name, but he had me send that copy to him and it seems as the info may not be correct. He said that is not how they state their contracts... so I am waiting to hear back on that. I also placed a call to our State attorney's office and waiting on their call back also. So we shall see how this turns out. Thanks for your input.
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:39 PM   #28
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Sorry for your loss! Thanks for your input. Looking forward to any further comments.
Thank You.

There's really nothing left to be said except to further speak about what ED all ready said about how it would be better/easier to settle this situation with the current contractor rather than pushing for a new contractor.

Insist on a new crew, with an owner/supervisor on site full time through out the duration of the job.
Insist on a discount/break/retribution for the mix up/inconvenience.
Insist he sign an agreement that the roof will meet manufacturer
specifications and let him know you will be hiring some one to inspect the work once it's been completed.
Insist he provide written proof of both liability and worker compensation insurances.
Let him know your willing to work this out with him, but you will take legal steps if you have to.

The easiest and best way out of a situation like this is always to work things out with the contractor if possible, you will never get all your money back through legal action.
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Old 07-20-2009, 09:58 PM   #29
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Thank You.

There's really nothing left to be said except to further speak about what ED all ready said about how it would be better/easier to settle this situation with the current contractor rather than pushing for a new contractor.

Insist on a new crew, with an owner/supervisor on site full time through out the duration of the job.
Insist on a discount/break/retribution for the mix up/inconvenience.
Insist he sign an agreement that the roof will meet manufacturer
specifications and let him know you will be hiring some one to inspect the work once it's been completed.
Insist he provide written proof of both liability and worker compensation insurances.
Let him know your willing to work this out with him, but you will take legal steps if you have to.

The easiest and best way out of a situation like this is always to work things out with the contractor if possible, you will never get all your money back through legal action.
OK, I see your points, although the whole company is said to have 12 employers, unless they were all illegals that was pretty much almost everyone that has already been here. The owner, the salesguy, an office lady, the supervisor, and in total there were 4 or 5 other guys working on the crew, so thats a total of 8 or 9 people there. I believe that my husband and I have both agreed that we do not want them on our job anymore. Because from the owner of the company, the salesperson all the way to the supervisor has lied one lie after another. They were not even doing things the correct way, my neighbor whom was a roofer for 4 years was watching them and they were mad because he called them out. Because of him calling them out, they all stood at their vehicle flipping him off. So i would rather not have them back here, because I believe it would just cause more problems. I simply have no trust in the company as a whole because of the lies i was told and because of the lack of sympathy or concern the owner showed for his crew almost killing myself and my 4 girls by covering the hot water heater vent and leaving for the day with it still covered. The only thing he could say was that it was a miscommunication in all the confusion and that is it! Say I had not been paying attention and not noticed that they had covered the vent and left it covered, what then? Before anyone would have realized we would all be seriously injured if not killed from carbon monoxide poisioning. But I do see where you are coming from, and we want to work with the guy without going to court. We think we at least deserve 1500.00 of the 4000.00 we paid. If we can not work that out then we may just have to go to court. I am meeting with an attorney just to help guide us and get some understanding on what we are entitled to and not entitled to. I did let the attorney know from getgo that he will be a last resort of trying to resolve the issue.I just can't allow that company to continue the work, they have just decieved wayyyyyy to much. He even lied and said they didn't need a permit and I called this morning and they said that we do need a permit even though we are out of the city limits. I don't think we are being selfish, I think we are trying to be as fair as possible?

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Old 07-21-2009, 07:25 AM   #30
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Yeah, it sounds as if this roofer and his workers crossed the line of no return.
With as bold as you state they are I would consider getting a house sitter, some one to be on the property while you and your husband are at work, etc.

I'm not sure if asking for $1500.00 back will be sufficient, start higher and let him talk you down a little bit.

If this ends up in court the roofers going to claim he has nothing so you may want to "if you can safely" get some pictures of the roofers property 'work shop', vehicles, tools & equipment, etc.
So when he tells a Judge he has nothing, you can say, well who owns this, this and that.
Ask your attorney if you can widen the scope of the lawsuit to include the workers who did the damage to your home rather than just naming the company, because the workers/subs may own some of the vehicles, tools & equipment, etc., themselves.

Good Luck
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