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-   -   Laying Ceramic floor tomorrow - Will mortar stick over glue residue? (http://www.diychatroom.com/f84/laying-ceramic-floor-tomorrow-will-mortar-stick-over-glue-residue-95038/)

pure_energy1 02-09-2011 09:43 PM

Laying Ceramic floor tomorrow - Will mortar stick over glue residue?
 
I'm finally getting around to laying down ceramic tile in my kitchen to replace the cheap garage plastic/vinyl floor tiles that are currently there.

To my surprise, the old vinyl tiles are coming up very easily with a pry bar. I suspect they were adhered with regular construction glue. The old tiles are sitting on 1/4" underlayment, which itself is sitting over 5/8" plywood.

As mentioned, the old tiles come up easily, but are leaving behind a slightly tacky glue residue.

Will the mortar adhere to the underlayment with the glue residue, or should I remove the underlayment entirely and put down another layer of 5/8" ply prior to laying the ceramic?

Here's a pic:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...23003Large.jpg

Teles 02-09-2011 10:11 PM

Hi, yes it will hold... but if was me doing the job, i'll go with mesh and scratch coat, and only after dry, mortar and tile...
Make sure you going to screw the sub-floor, to make sure your grout will not crack after...

Sorry my english, but you will understand, and for sure will help you...!

pure_energy1 02-09-2011 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teles (Post 587983)
but if was me doing the job, i'll go with mesh and scratch coat, and only after dry, mortar and tile...

Not sure what you mean by mesh and scratch coat... Can you elaborate?

Thanks! :)

Tile Pro 02-09-2011 10:21 PM

A couple thoughts
 
If the area isn't too large, you might consider removing the glue with a commercial glue dissolving product. It's messy and takes 2 applications usually. I get saw dust from a mill shop to soak up the glue and remover. Then water to cut the residue.
If you can remove the underlayment, replace it with 1/4" hardi backer. I generally use liquid nails around the perimeter and in parallel rows, then nail down with 1-1/2" galv roofing nails. Or use thin set under the hardi backer.
Your morter bed will not make a chemical bond to the old glue. The old vinyl tile didn't stick to it too well; there's no telling if the thin set will stick to it forever.
Do not use luan plywood. It will fail over time. :wink:

pure_energy1 02-09-2011 10:35 PM

Thanks Tile Pro...
Removing the glue sounds messy and time consuming. I'm leaning towards removing the 1/4" underlayment and putting down new 5/8" ply over the existing ply... Which will theoretically reduce any bounce, right?

That being said, if i proceed with that do i:

A: Use mortar between the ply sheets and tape/mortar the seams? And screws...

B: Use construction adhesive between ply sheets and screws? Tape seams?

C: will only screws suffice?

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rusty baker 02-09-2011 10:41 PM

No mortar between the ply sheets and do not glue down the plywood.

Teles 02-09-2011 10:50 PM

1 Attachment(s)
[IMG]file:///C:/Users/Teles/AppData/Local/Temp/moz-screenshot.png[/IMG]Hi... I agree with what he said... but the cost and time spend doing like that will be more than triple... But if you do like he says, just use floor screw 1 1/2", because after 2/3 years, the nails will get loose, and will not hold anymore.

check this website http://www.jnstoneinc.com/products-ins.html you will see what i mean with mesh and scratch coat...

And i guaranty you, works exactly the same...

JazMan 02-10-2011 01:24 PM

Holy cow! Bad info in this thread....here we go again..
 
Pure-energy, do NOT listen to some of the answers you see above, they seem to be given by nice people that just don't know. I guess that's the nicest way to put it.

Quote:

yes it will hold... but if was me doing the job, i'll go with mesh and scratch coat,
This statement is hogwash. "Scratch-coat" aka "Jersey-Mud" has been tested many times and has FAILED EVERY test. The TCNA and it's Canadian cousin org. have never been able to get this method to hold up when subjected to their standard "Robinson" testing procedures for tile floor installation. It's a lousy way to set tiles, popular in parts of the US east coast and parts of Canada, esp. the Toronto area. It's pushed cuz it's cheaper although the customer may not necessarily pay less.

No real tile-setter professional would do that kind of work.

Quote:

you might consider removing the glue with a commercial glue dissolving product.
Another wrong answer. Using solvents is highly NOT recommended since it'll drive the adhesive AND the bond-breaking solvent further into the substrate. That is exactly the opposite of what you want. Solvents are also kinda dangerous, they tend to burn or even go BOOOOOM! :censored:

Quote:

If you can remove the underlayment, replace it with 1/4" hardi backer.
Well, that's right...except it's not "IF", you should removed the 1/4" underlayment to follow expert recommendations.

Quote:

I generally use liquid nails around the perimeter and in parallel rows, then nail down with 1-1/2" galv roofing nails.
That is completely wrong. You must install ALL CBU's into a layer of thin set mortar.

Quote:

Do not use luan plywood. It will fail over time.
You got that right, so why did you suggest to leave the old luaun in the subfloor sandwich? It's not recommended to have it under the CBU either.

Quote:

I'm leaning towards removing the 1/4" underlayment and putting down new 5/8" ply over the existing ply... Which will theoretically reduce any bounce, right?
Good move pure_energy, :thumbup: You can get away with a thinner plywood than 5/8", but the more the better. HOWEVER, I recommend you set the tiles over a CBU or special matting made for tile. I do NOT recommend you tiling direct over ply.. :no:

Quote:

That being said, if i proceed with that do i:
Quote:

A: Use mortar between the ply sheets and tape/mortar the seams? And screws...
NO!

Quote:

B: Use construction adhesive between ply sheets and screws? Tape seams?
NO!

Quote:

C: will only screws suffice?
:thumbup:

Quote:

check this website http://www.jnstoneinc.com/products-ins.html you will see what i mean with mesh and scratch coat...
Total garbage. That system only works good enough for walls as shown. Speaking of which all that amateur nonsense is driving me up the wall now. :laughing:

Come on people, if you don't know the right way, take courses, attend trade seminars, take a course at the CTEF in S.C. read the TCNA manual or something! The average DIY'er is liable to believe what is written here since they assume we are all professionals.

Sorry Nathan, (moderator) couldn't let that go, it would make this forum look silly!

Jaz

rusty baker 02-10-2011 01:43 PM

I second every thing that Jaz said.

Teles 02-10-2011 07:48 PM

Quote:

It's a lousy way to set tiles, popular in parts of the US east coast and parts of Canada, esp. the Toronto area
Well, i'm being doing like this for years, and giving warranty's (never got call back). Never saw a grout cracked in my jobs...

Another think, if you going with a second layer of plywood 5/8, you going to raise your floor at the end in 2", that means, you have to cut doors, and use threshold to do the transition...!

But Mike Holmes will do like Jazman...!

14X more expensive to last the same time...!:censored:

Bud Cline 02-10-2011 08:37 PM

Quote:

Well, i'm being doing like this for years, and giving warranty's (never got call back).
That is all fine and dandy but the fact is the entire tile installation industry in the U.S. does not recognize that procedure and in fact recommends against its use. It has been tested by all of the U.S. authorities and the procedure has failed every time. You won't find that procedure recommended anywhere but on the Internet by novices and those that are untrained. My suggestion to those that use this method and call themselves pros is that they get some formal training in tile installation and they will no longer use this method and boast about their lack of failures.:) Which can't be true by the way.:)

Everything Jaz has said above is in fact by the book in this country and the way it should be done.

Teles 02-10-2011 09:39 PM

Quote:

Everything Jaz has said above is in fact by the book in this country and the way it should be done.
Ok, i see...
...this is a website for Americans right?

Once again you guys showing that, you guys don't accept opinions from no one...!

You guys know in the paper, but not in the field...!


Grow a little bit, open your mind and get smarter...!
:censored:

LIHR 02-10-2011 10:12 PM

"Well, i'm being doing like this for years"

Whenever I hear anyone in the trades say that I cringe, because it tells me they've been doing it wrong for years, but more unfortunate for them they do not research, study and understand the what, why and how of their trade.


"A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."
Ralph Waldo Emerson (18031882)

Bud Cline 02-10-2011 10:37 PM

Quote:

You guys know in the paper, but not in the field...!

Be careful now! Between Jaz and myself we have over 70 years of "in the field" experience and have spent decades learning the ins and outs of the trade whereas you obviously have no formal training in the field what-so-ever. That's why learning is so important and keeping up with acceptable procedures is so important.

The U.S. specs is all we need to follow in the U.S. but the truth is the specifications of Canada are in fact identical to those in the U.S.

Check in to the TTMAC (Terrazzo Tile & Marble Association of Canada) and see for yourself.

Better yet...register at this websit (http://www.ontariotile.com/) and ask questions and get schooled at the same time. Ask anyone there about the method in question and you'll get the same comments you are getting here.:) Get to know Harry Dunbar at that site and he can provide you with a world of knowledge.

http://www.ontariotile.com/

pure_energy1 02-18-2011 10:06 PM

Sorry for the late reply... As you'll see shortly, I've been busy...

First, thanks to all contributors, Especially JazMan! Your input was invaluable.

Since my last post, I got some good pointers from Jazman, whose private input and knowledge was invaluable. I can't thank you enough.

Over the course of the last week, I managed to tear out the old floor in the kitchen and in the vestibule. The original subfloor in the vestibule was rotted, so I also replaced that with new ply.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...01103Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...70407Large.jpg

I laid additional ply in the kitchen, followed by 1/4" Cement backerboard in both the kitchen and 2 layers of it in the vestibule. I bought several 1/4" sheets, and didn't feel like going out for a 1/2" sheet, so I got by with what I had.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...70407Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...62724Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...63542Large.jpg

I then laid the tile...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...73131Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...70734Large.jpg

Grouted... (I can't convey how much I hate grouting...)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...34127Large.jpg

...I eventually ended up with this today.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...70152Large.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...70208Large.jpg

I'm still strengthening the grout by damp curing it (misting it twice a day tomorrow), then sealing it, and then I will seal the edges with caulk.

I'm pretty happy with how it has turned out. I took my time while juggling a full time job and other responsibilities.
I can't wait to get my appliances back into their respective spots. The house looks like hell right now.

Hopefully some of the information in this thread will be helpful to others.

Cheers,
-Vince


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