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Old 09-29-2010, 05:15 PM   #1
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Flooring, Bud Cline, are you there?


I posted on the floorng forum but got no response.So here goes.Kitchen remodel.Need to do something about the floor.Linolium over stick tiles over linolium.My thinking is this,it will be very difficult to remove the three layers so i remove the entire subfloor and put down a new one.Current sud floor appears to be 1/2 in maybe 5/8? Then apply thin set and ditra then more thinset and tiles.Finished floor should be level with existing hardwood floor.Anything wrong with this plan? Current floor is supported by 2x8 joists straddled with ??? size planks with sub floor on top.Area to be tiled 10x10 sq.ft. with 12in tiles set at 45 degree.

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Old 09-29-2010, 05:29 PM   #2
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Flooring, Bud Cline, are you there?


It's Bud Cline.

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Old 09-29-2010, 08:00 PM   #3
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Flooring, Bud Cline, are you there?


I'm not sure removing the subfloor would be easier than removing the layers. A power chisel would make removing the tile layer much easier.
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:19 PM   #4
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I'm not sure removing the subfloor would be easier than removing the layers. A power chisel would make removing the tile layer much easier.
The tiles are stick on type.They appear to have been put down some time ago.They do not come off so easily,I tried.Plus the 2 layers of linolium above and below the tiles have been put on with adhesive.So these 3 layers of glued down stuff is not coming off so quickly.Is there some release agent I can use that won't stink up the place?Then I would still be concerned that the floor will get too wet.
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:22 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by rusty baker View Post
It's Bud Cline.
Sorry about that.Looks like you were in the flooring business.Any helpful advise?
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:42 PM   #6
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Flooring, Bud Cline, are you there?


Wait for the tile experts, Jaz and Bud. They know far more about tile than I do.
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Old 09-29-2010, 10:53 PM   #7
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Flooring, Bud Cline, are you there?


Title edited to correct spelling of Bud's name. Po)

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Old 09-29-2010, 11:17 PM   #8
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Flooring, Bud Cline, are you there?


Hi Nel, Rusty,

Bud is busy at the moment, but surely will show up later.

Nel, 1st of all, forget the chemicals. It won't work, will make matters worse, and may initiate an insurance claim.

Don't expect a simple answer on this, we need more info from you. I can tell you that I usually do not recommend removing the subfloor as the first option, unless it's damaged somehow.

If the wood you call the subfloor is the one over the joists, (often there are 2 structural layers 1/2 + 5/8" or similar), you might be creating a lot more work than removing the layers.

You said the subfloor might be 1/2", hope not. How old is your home? You need to tell us: The type and size of the joists, species and grade, spacing from joist to joist, and the unsupported span to the inch.

Also very important, the thickness of the layers of ply or (?) starting from over the joists. Vinyl flooring is not usually installed direct over the subfloor, an underlayment is required. Often it's 1/4" luaun or similar. Note all you find and report back. You may need to drill a hole someplace to figure this out.

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Old 09-30-2010, 09:56 PM   #9
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Hi Nel, Rusty,

Bud is busy at the moment, but surely will show up later.

Nel, 1st of all, forget the chemicals. It won't work, will make matters worse, and may initiate an insurance claim.

Don't expect a simple answer on this, we need more info from you. I can tell you that I usually do not recommend removing the subfloor as the first option, unless it's damaged somehow.

If the wood you call the subfloor is the one over the joists, (often there are 2 structural layers 1/2 + 5/8" or similar), you might be creating a lot more work than removing the layers.

You said the subfloor might be 1/2", hope not. How old is your home? You need to tell us: The type and size of the joists, species and grade, spacing from joist to joist, and the unsupported span to the inch.

Also very important, the thickness of the layers of ply or (?) starting from over the joists. Vinyl flooring is not usually installed direct over the subfloor, an underlayment is required. Often it's 1/4" luaun or similar. Note all you find and report back. You may need to drill a hole someplace to figure this out.

Jaz
The house was built in 1955.The joist are 2x8 on 18in centers.Over the joist are "planks' that are 3 5/8 wide and 3/4 in thick.Over this is 3/4 in plywood.Don't know what type of wood but VERY dense and heavy.As an example I had to open a partion wall and it was framed with 2x3s.I needed an extra 2x 3 and the new one 96 long was less than half the weight of an old piece that was 4 ft long.Go figure.I think it may be mahogany or something very close.Very dense stuff.The unsupported span 125 in.Note under the joist end on the interior wall there is a steel I beam.I do not see any luan.I did find there is some tar paper under this very first layer of linolium.But after further investigating it looks like I will need to replace some of the ply wood.In the area that housed the dishwasher and sink the plywood has started to delaminate.So I guess I will go ahead and replace all the plywood and skip trying to pleel the old layers off.My question is this,is there a specific plywood I need to ask for? Also can I then just use the thin set to attach the ditra-mat [sp] then go over with tiles?
Thanks for you help.

Last edited by nel262; 09-30-2010 at 09:59 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 10-03-2010, 06:27 PM   #10
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That structure is not suitable for ceramic tile in my opinion.

If your appraisal of the components is correct..........

The joists are too small.
The joist spacing is too great.
The unsupported span is unacceptable.
And the many layers of previous floor coverings (if not totally removed) are extensive, and could allow more movement than would be acceptable.
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Old 10-03-2010, 10:45 PM   #11
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Flooring, Bud Cline, are you there?


Holy cow, this may be the first time I disagree with our friend Bud. But we need to verify a few things.

Mainly the on center spacing of the joists. You said 18" but I'll bet you measured wrong. It should be 16", maybe you measure from the start of a joist to the end of the next or something. Please check again.

2x8 joists are not too small for floors. They just can't span as far as larger joists of course. Depending on grade and species you should be real close or a bit better than minimum even when I use 2nd grade at 50/20 live/dead load factors. 50/20 is very safe for tiles since normal min. codes require 40/10.

Please figure out the species and grade if at all possible. Ask an old timer....your town's building department or ?

Once the joists are confirmed and you install the new underlayment, you will be fine. You need a good grade of underlayment, (not sheathing), the plies will be bonded with exterior glues and should say exposure 1 or similar. Go as thick as possible, 3/4" is more than required, so do that.

Ask about how that's installed when you get to it.

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Old 10-04-2010, 04:54 PM   #12
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:11 PM   #13
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Ok 16 on center.For some reason one joist was 18 on center from the one next to it but with blocking.Still don't know what type of wood.The electrician had to get new drill bits to drill a couple of holes for some new wireing.He said it was some of the hardest stuff he ever had to drill.About the underlayment,I think I need 3/4 exterior grade plywood with an exposure rating of 1,yes? Also the planks underneath run north south and the joist east west.So I will install the underlayment east west,yes?This way everything is at 180 degree to each other.Also do you insulate an exterior wall in a kitchen? No insulation present.
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Old 10-04-2010, 08:13 PM   #14
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What would be an acceptable length of unsupported span?
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Old 10-05-2010, 11:08 PM   #15
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Flooring, Bud Cline, are you there?


The face grain of ply is always installed across the joists. The electricians experience with drill bits doesn't tell me much. Joists are kiln dried and so they're hard but vary by species and grade quite a bit. Either that or cheap drill bits.

The acceptable span? That is why I keep axing about the species and grade. You said 125", so 10'5". I checked the span chart using grade #2 at 50/20 and you're right at the border line or just above with most common species. You failed if the joists are Spruce-Pine-Fir South. There are other species. Joists are usually marked with the info.

Yes exposure 1 underlayment. It's plies are glued together with waterproof glues. Do not confuse it with pressure treated outdoor lumber, bad stuff.

All ext. walls require insulation, with vapor barrier. The type depends on where the house is.

Jaz

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