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Old 07-14-2012, 10:21 PM   #16
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Ceramic Tile Floor Info Help


We've explained the correct orientation of ply many times, but one of us wants to do it his way.....fine.

One more time just for Richard. Ply & OSB sheets are stiffer when the face grain is going across the joists. Not because Bud & I say so, but if anyone would think about it for a few seconds it should be obvious, as you were thinking. Ply has an odd number of veneers, always one more going the long way.

It's no problem to offset the seams in both directions. Hardie and all CBU's can be installed in any direction that's convenient, makes no diff, it has no grain.

Jaz

ps. I know my posts look and may be worded a little different than usual. I happen to be on a job in Northern VA/DC area, and not used to a laptop.

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Old 07-16-2012, 12:58 PM   #17
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Guys, I think I got it:
  • Orient the plywood in the same direction as the subfloor (i.e., across the joists)
  • Offset both the horizontal and vertical seams.
  • Fasten the additional layer of 3/4" plywood to the "field" of the subfloor.
  • Do NOT use subfloor glue when fastening this additional layer of 3/4" plywood.
  • Good idea to stop the plywood about 1/4" from the wall base plate, and caulk.
A few questions:
  • I was planning on using plywood. OSB has also been mentioned . Is one better than the other, or does it matter?
  • Will any grade of board do, or should something specific be used (say exterior)?
  • When fastening into the subfloor below, how "dense" should it be -- every 8"? 6"?
  • What length of screw should be used to fasten a 3/4" board (I'm thinking 1-5/8" since the screws are not going into the joists)?
  • What type of screw should be used? Originally, I was thinking drywall screws would be OK, but from the comments, I'm thinking maybe CBU-type screws oughta be used ...
Thanks!

Richard
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Old 07-16-2012, 01:16 PM   #18
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Ceramic Tile Floor Info Help


I would use BC sanded or AC for ply, you can use osb but doesn't do well with moisture as per regular ply.

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Old 07-17-2012, 12:29 PM   #19
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Unless there's a real reason to go otherwise, I'll use BC to shave some costs. Should I use exterior or interior?

Richard
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:16 PM   #20
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B/C is plenty good as an underlayment for a CBU. The book says C/C or better, C/C is hard to find. I didn't want to read this entire thing again; Why go with 3/4" for your second layer? I recall you installed 1/2", and you called it "subfloor". So the 1/2 was on the joists? Or was it over something else? Irrespective, you don't need 3/4", but go for it cuz the more the better if the height doesn't create a problem.

People get mixed up when we say exterior plywood. We mean plywood whose plies are bonded with waterproof glue, but it's for interior use. Some people make a BIG mistake and buy pressure-treated ply, which is junk and cannot be used indoor and/or for a tile installation.

Use flooring screw, deck screws, no need for CBU screws. Please get back with the thickness of the subfloor, esp. if it's only the 1/2" ply you earlier mentioned.

Jaz
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:14 PM   #21
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JazMan,

Thanks for getting back to me, and sorry for not replying before this -- life has been a bit busy ...

So, the background on the subfloor. The original floor mud floor was quite rotted out. It literally had holes where you could see the unit below.

I took out almost everything right down to the joists. The exceptions were some solid portions of the subfloor around the periphery of the room towards the door. I left these in because they seemed to be part of other subfloor sheets extending from the bedroom.

I then put 2x12s between the joists (glued and screwed) all over the place, because I never wanted to have holes in the floor again. These 2x12s are along the tub, where the toilet goes, etc. I'd say about 40% of the floor has this support. Way overkill, but as I said ...

I then put 1/2" plywood down on the joists (glued using PL subfloor glue, and then screwed). I probably should have used 5/8", but when I brought a sample of the old subfloor plywood in, I was told it was 1/2", and I wanted to stay consistent.

Now, when I measure from the new subfloor to the top of the toilet flange, it is about 1-5/8". I thought I'd use plywood to "pad up" the floor so that the finished floor isn't too low. The tile I'm using is 5/16", and when I add up the depth of the various layers, I figure 3/4" for the plywood. I might drop that down to 5/8" to provide some wiggle room (I understand a little high is OK, below the floor is a no-no).

However, now you have me a bit worried. I put the subfloor in using 1-5/8" drywall screws. Should I replace these drywall screws with flooring or deck screws?

Also, I take it that flooring or deck screws should be used to install the "pad up" plywood. If 3/4" plywood is used, how long should the screw be? Also, do I screw these into the field of the subfloor every 12"? 8"?

Finally, on a completely different tack, I've got one guy telling me that Hardi is OK for the walls, but not floors (he recommends Utilicrete). Also, he say that RedGard should not be used to waterproof the floor. Again, I'm just trying to minimally prevent water from going down below -- with a wide open bathroom door, truly sealing the bathroom isn't really an option. If RedGard isn't the right product, what is? AquaSeal has also been mentioned ...

Thanks for your help!

Richard


P.S. - Are you still in the DC/No. Va. area?
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:51 PM   #22
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Did you take the toilet flange off the toilet drain or cut around it?
So you have 1/2" then 5/8" or 3/4" which either or is good enough layed the same way but offset the seams

Any cbu board is good for floor tile as long as its 1/4" mesh taped and screwed with backer screws. The hole reason for redgaurd is to put on cbu doesn't make a difference if it's on the floor or wall but for water protection.

You can go 2 5/8" screws for both layers of ply (decking) screws.
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:29 PM   #23
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Richard,

OK, I understand the history now. The ideal height of the underlayment/flange is when the finished floor is level with the bottom of the flange. It can be different though. You can use thinner/thicker wax rings, use two wax rings, use shims on the flange and do the mentioned along with longer bolts, etc.

The reason I was concerned about 1/2" subfloor is because being only 1/2" you do not have as much "bite" for the screws for the new underlayment. In cases like that we often recommend the underlayment be laminated to the subfloor. However....you'd have to use a full-spread wood glue and work real fast. Probably a little overkill, but you'd get a real stiff floor.

Although Hardie is the best selling CBU, I like real concrete backers more. You can use 1/4" on floors. Some 1/4" concrete boards, (like Wonderboard), are very flimsy until installed and I don't like them. Durock is 5/16", my favorite is Permabase which as I recall comes in 3/8" (floors) and reg. 1/2". Utilacrete is good stuff too. Sometimes you have little choice cuz of availability and in the end they all work well. The rub on Hardie & other similar boards is that they are very thirsty and suck the life out of the thin set. That's why you should mist or wipe the board just before you spread the adhesive.

Actually I think Ditra is the best way to go, and what I use most-a-da time. 1/8" installed can be part of a waterproofing system, light weight.

Remember plywood is 1/32" thinner than its stated thickness. Concrete backers with be 1/16" higher when set into thin set. Your tiles will be 3/8" when set. So...where are we height wise?

Sounds like you're perfect with 3/4", + 1/4" CBU + 3/8" for tile. From the 1/2" sub to the bottom of the flange is 1 3/8", if I figured right. You're good plus you've good wiggle room.

Bathroom floors do not require waterproofing cuz you can not really waterproof it unless you build it like a shower floor, but most people don't wanna step over a curb in the doorway.

Yes Richard, I am still in NO VA, Mclean actually not far from Tyson's.

BTW, anyone reading this who lives in the area is invited to meet for a brew on me. Offer is valid Saturday the 21st. :thumb up: jaz@tile4you.com


Jaz
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Last edited by JazMan; 07-20-2012 at 07:38 PM.
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:42 PM   #24
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Quote:
I will take that brew jazzy, so you know Frankie Smitt he's cousins with Nicky. Ya know.
No Idee what/who you're referring to. Please xplain. jaz@tile4you.com

Jaz

OK, the post has been removed.......pauldrillin got shy
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:01 PM   #25
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JazMan and JetSweet and All,

Sorry to keep popping in and out of this discussion. Believe me, given the conflicting advice I've gotten from various contractors, your expertise is greatly appreciated.

JetSweet, to answer your question, the toilet flange was not touched. When I went down to the joists, I left it as is. When I glued and screwed in the 2x12s between the joists, for two of them, I made cutouts that were half the pipe crossection, and put one on either side of the pipe, and right up against it, with caulk to seal everything. I then laid over that a full section of plywood. Since it was a full section of plywood, I had to cut out a full circle to fit the board over the toilet flange. However, underneath that full circle are the 2x12s, so I'm hoping I'm OK.

From you guys' comments, I take it that the drywall screws used to put in the 1/2" plywood floor are OK, but that deck/CBU screws should be used for the 2nd layer of plywood.

When plywood is screwed in, is the following correct:
  • Screw every 12"
  • Use 1-5/8" screws
  • Screw in the field, NOT the joists
  • Overlap the seams
Finally, the last contractor said "Forget CBU, go with mud. I'll do it for the same price." Any thoughts?

Thanks again,

Richard
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:12 PM   #26
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All,

I forgot to add that I'm interested in using HardiBacker because it comes in the 4' x 8' boards. This puts the seam back behind the toilet and undetneath the vanity (see picture). Do the "better" boards come in 4' x 8' boards? If not, does their better quality warrant putting a seam where people will be walking?

Thanks,

Richard
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:14 PM   #27
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Quote:
Finally, the last contractor said "Forget CBU, go with mud. I'll do it for the same price." Any thoughts?
Now you're talking! You should be fine with just the 1/2" with the blocking you added. The tile setter will make the 1:5 (Portland/sand), mud at least 3/4" thick and very flat. Good for another 70 years.

Jaz

p.s. 4x8 CBU=pain in the A$$. Not good for small spaces cuz you'll likely to have to cut it into smaller sizes to get it in. Seams are stronger than the rest of the sheet. Yes, even 1/2" concrete boards come in large sheets and might make sense for certain jobs.
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Old 07-26-2012, 02:58 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RichardZ
JazMan and JetSweet and All,

Sorry to keep popping in and out of this discussion. Believe me, given the conflicting advice I've gotten from various contractors, your expertise is greatly appreciated.

JetSweet, to answer your question, the toilet flange was not touched. When I went down to the joists, I left it as is. When I glued and screwed in the 2x12s between the joists, for two of them, I made cutouts that were half the pipe crossection, and put one on either side of the pipe, and right up against it, with caulk to seal everything. I then laid over that a full section of plywood. Since it was a full section of plywood, I had to cut out a full circle to fit the board over the toilet flange. However, underneath that full circle are the 2x12s, so I'm hoping I'm OK.

From you guys' comments, I take it that the drywall screws used to put in the 1/2" plywood floor are OK, but that deck/CBU screws should be used for the 2nd layer of plywood.

When plywood is screwed in, is the following correct:
[*]Screw every 12"[*]Use 1-5/8" screws[*]Screw in the field, NOT the joists[*]Overlap the seams
Finally, the last contractor said "Forget CBU, go with mud. I'll do it for the same price." Any thoughts?

Thanks again,

Richard
Yes the 2nd layer not in joists but every 12"
You really should swet the flang off this way you can have support under the flang and you also need to screw the flang to a base. How are you going to lay the subfloor down with flang in the way?

It takes high skills to forgo the cbu and tile on plywood. just stick to what your plan is.
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:22 PM   #29
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Quote:
It takes high skills to forgo the cbu and tile on plywood. just stick to what your plan is.
Tile on plywood? Who was gonna do that? Jet, any idea what a mud-job is?

Jaz
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:35 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMan

Tile on plywood? Who was gonna do that? Jet, any idea what a mud-job is?

Jaz
He stated the contractor said that he do away with cbu to save him money sooooo... You say it's a mud job with out cbu right?

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