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Old 06-27-2011, 08:58 PM   #16
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Bathtub/ shower tiling


This is a complete mess. Should be completely ripped out and started from scratch -- properly.

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Old 06-27-2011, 09:30 PM   #17
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Thanks for the pictures---I'm off to bed---I'll see if I can come up with an idea----The wall need to be tight to the tub for any thing to work,however.---Mike---
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Old 06-27-2011, 09:35 PM   #18
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This is a complete mess. Should be completely ripped out and started from scratch -- properly.
See the space behind the tub?
I sure have to use the flange add-on.
One of my attempts was to put a plank behind (to fill up the space and also use it as a spacer to level the backboard) AND then I used the flange the "right" way, but there was still a space due to rounded edge of the tub. No go.

So? What do I do?
Also, how to I stabilize the tub?

Yes, quite a mess, because I had to find a solution to the mess I found all around. As I mentioned, the tub was surrounded by 1 1/2 plywood and the tiles were stuck to plywood using adhesive.

Funny thing is that the setup has been like that for 12 yrs or longer and all I found was a bit of infiltration. Just a bit of blackened area - but no fresh black mold. Weird. I was happy that I took it all apart, but then I saw the mess I have to fix.

So, how do I fix it - without buying a new tup with flange, which is what I would need for that corner...

HELP?... Any solutions, please?
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Old 06-27-2011, 09:38 PM   #19
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What are your plans for the front of the tub where the plywood is?
Tiles on adhesive (mastic), which is what I had before - rock solid, no issues for 12 yrs or more, so there should be no issue now either.

I thought that is the last of my issues... Even after tiling the board can be removed to attend to the pump.

Any solution for the bathtub rim?
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Old 06-27-2011, 09:58 PM   #20
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Bathtub/ shower tiling


Wow, You do have yourself a mess there. There is lots of info on tiling, thinset etc. Thay you have to eDucate yourself somwhat before taking this on. Bud and Mike are the ones to ask but these are some of the issues I see.

1. The metal mesh you are proposing to use will carode in failry short order due to the alkalinity of the thinset.

2. The wood will rot regardless.

3. You mentioned in your first post that you got the best thinset HD recommends. Be very wary of the advice you get from those guys. I don't know why they feel compelled to tell you they know about something when they do not. I have gotten so much bad advice from Lowes and HD associates.

4. You mentioned something about mastic. Do not use mastic there. It is completely inappropriate in a wet envromnent. Years ago, they used to use it but thaty have since discovered that it fails when wet.
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:14 PM   #21
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Glad that I did not close the whole thing up.
But now I need some guidance..

I believe that my situation is explained fully above. Let me know if you need anything else, but I need a solution.

If I knew what a nightmare I was going to find behind the tiles I would have probably not started this job at all.

I hope that with your help I can redo the place in a proper and lasting way.
Thank you all.

Eugen
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:37 PM   #22
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THAT'S A DROP-IN TUB !!!

Why on earth are you using that tub? Was that tub there already is that what you are saying?

The wallboard needs to come off. The studs need to be firred-out and the wallboard put back.


What are your plans for the front of the tub where the plywood is? (That's three)
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Old 06-27-2011, 10:50 PM   #23
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I can certainly understand why you would not want to do what you have already done but...

Why are you trying to make this work with a flangeless tub in the first place? Is that the original tub? Is a new proper tub out of your budget?

The slight movement you speak of will give you headaches if nothing else does. You will be periodically recaulking where the tub meets the wall for the life of this tub. Replacing the tub would givie you the opportunity to instal the new tub properly. The wood can and should be replaced with the wonderboard you are using. are the boards screwed or nailed? If screwed, it should be unscrewed and lowered down to the tub edge. Wile the wonderboard is removed, the wall studs should be brought out to be tight against the tub. This can be accomplished by sistering new members to the preexisting studs- plumb top to bottom and flush side by side.

I have torn out painted, finished drywall in my tub surround after deciding to tile rather than using a plastic surround.

What you have going there may even hold the water out for a few years, maybe even long enough for you to sell the house to someone else. But, Imagine what they will be saying about you down the road. The point is, you are going to get advice here telling you the proper way to fix your problem even if it is not what you want to hear.
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Old 06-27-2011, 11:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
Tiles on adhesive (mastic), which is what I had before - rock solid, no issues for 12 yrs or more, so there should be no issue now either.
Now see, that's another area where you have jumped to a conclusion that is going to get you into trouble. I hate it when people think they can do things correctly but unfortunately have no idea what they are up against.

I will tell you that twelve years ago "all mastic" was different. The government jumped into the tile business and had all of the V.O.C.'s removed from those types of adhesive. Mastics today are not near what mastic of yesteryear was.

Why can't you fir-out the studs and start over?

We can help you but we need more cooperation and less resistance. You are misinformed about many things and seem insistent on doing it your way while at the same time asking for help.

Get rid of all the wood everywhere. You can not tile over that wood and expect it to be successful for very long.

STOP taking advice from the vested zombies at the Home centers, they will cause you more grief than anything else.

Home Depots thinset products are OK but they are far from top-o-the-line stuff.

If the tub is moving now, it is not installed properly. The tub should be reinstalled. Wait till you get 300 pounds of water in it and a bather and see it detach itself from the walls.

That is the wrong tub for this application and that is your basic problem. Those acrylic tubs don't' cost that much and neither would the right tub with the right flange.

Get rid of that goofy rubber nonsense, throw it in the trash. You will never get it to seal properly.

Okay, where are we now? What are you going to agree to, and what are you going to resist?
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Old 06-28-2011, 06:40 AM   #25
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I sure can't add anything more to this unless you are willing to re-do that ---the walls are to far from the tub.

A ledger board under the tub ,all the way around might (might) get that stable enough,

Mastic is a bad plan--the new formulas turn to liquid when damp--
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:15 AM   #26
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First of all: thanks a lot for your feedback.
Much appreciated.

Some responses to the latest feedback and questions:
  • I sure know that the bathtub is a drop-in and very unsuitable for the location that it's been installed in. I can only speculate as to what happened 12 or more years back, when the previous (elderly) house owners had the bath redone. Just so that you understand the extent of the mess - there were 2 layers of wall tiles that I had to remove...
  • I went with the mastic idea because the old one was supersolid - I basically could not break the tiles off the plywood around the tub and on the skirt board. Note that there is absolutely no moisture on that board and when I took it apart it was bone dry. It looks like what you're saying is that today there is no proper adhesive any more and that I should use something else. Q: What should I do, if I should not use plywood and adhesive/ mastic. The skirt board has to remain easily removable. Of course, the board has been and will remain fully Sillicone II caulked at all times.
  • I am not familiar with the proper procedure for firring out the studs. Where can I find some instructions? What I've done to match levels for my boards, so that I can align the wonderboard to the wood baseboard was to have horizontal 3/4 x 6 wood nailed on. With a lot of sweat I've got everything leveled properly. If I will have to go with wonderboard all the way down to a new tub I will have to likely use 1/2 in boards. Again, I am not sure how the firring out is to be done properly.
  • The tub that I have turns out that it is porcelain and I will get a porcelain replacement. I assume that porcelain bathtubs also come with tiling flanges and whirlpool - which is what I am replacing. Yes, not a cheap bathtub, but I am ready to replace it now, if you say there is no way around it. I wanted to stay away from that because of all the work around buying a new one and replacing it. Hopefully I can take and replace the drain out without much headache.
  • The tub movement was just very little - mas 1/8 at the far end when getting in. I have installed the wood surround while pressing down and having the bathtub full of water and standing in it. that made sure that the tub stopped moving. Just FYI, as now I will replace the tub, if I find one with a tiling flange.

All in all: I am ready to take everything off - even though it will be a nightmare, and redo, with a new tub.

Can you please advise on:
  • What to look for when selecting the new porcelain whirlpool tub - as it pertains to the installatin, maintenance, and durability.
  • What to do wrt the front skirt. We would like to tile that as well, while maintaining easy access.
  • How do I do the firring (or is it "furring out")? Again, not sure if that refers to the planks that I used before.

Once again, thank you for your help. Much appreciated.
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:20 AM   #27
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I was sure that it was acrylic, but when I saw a few chinks from tiles dropping on the tub I saw some pink substrate that looked very much like ceramic, hence my theory that it is porcelain. On the other hand, I remember having porcelain in another house before and it really felt and even sounded differently.
How can I tell which is which?
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Old 06-28-2011, 04:11 PM   #28
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Cast iron tubs have a porcelain finish. But jets in a porcelain tub are unusual. Not impossible but unusual.That's not a cast iron tub.

Steel tubs have a porcelain finish. It could be a steel tub. Jets in a steel tub are unusual. Not impossible I suppose but I've never seen one.

Acrylic tubs come with jets all the time. 99.9 % of jetted tubs are acrylic in my thinking.

If you tap on the tub and get a "thud" report it's likely acrylic.
If you tap on the tub and get "clank" report it is steel.

Can't explain the interior look of the chinks.

Surely you can tell if the tub is plastic (as in acrylic) or not.


Quote:
What to look for when selecting the new porcelain whirlpool tub - as it pertains to the installation, maintenance, and durability.
Look at the acrylic tubs if you are wanting another jetted tub, they do come with wall flanges.

Quote:
What to do wrt the front skirt. We would like to tile that as well, while maintaining easy access.
All jetted acrylics I know of have a front skirt (acrylic) available. Some may have a tile-able skirt available, not sure about that. In this case I wouldn't try to tile it if you think you will have to remove it. Removable tile skirts are problematic at best. If you insist on tiling the skirt then tile it, there are ways to build in access panels. I wouldn't recommend you do that.

Quote:
How do I do the firring (or is it "furring out")? Again, not sure if that refers to the planks that I used before.
In this case...To "fir it out" is to extend the studs by adding an additional thickness to move the wallboard surface outward. If you are going to replace the tub this may not be necessary.

I always thought the term "fir" referred to the species of wood used way back when. Doesn't matter, that's the term. Doesn't matter what species of wood is used so don't get hung up the term.

You can "fir out" either on the face of each stud or horizontally as long as your spacing doesn't exceed 16" center to center. FIRST get your measurements, locate your new tub, then you will know if the fir out is required.

Tubs come in different lengths and widths. Typically they are 60" long. This is the critical dimension you need to worry about.

What is the EXACT measurement of the long opening of the tub cavity stud to stud?

Then, what is the measurement of the other wall, the shortest one if they are different.
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Last edited by Bud Cline; 06-28-2011 at 04:15 PM.
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Old 06-28-2011, 04:19 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
Cast iron tubs have a porcelain finish. But jets in a porcelain tub are unusual. Not impossible but unusual.That's not a cast iron tub.

Steel tubs have a porcelain finish. It could be a steel tub. Jets in a steel tub are unusual. Not impossible I suppose but I've never seen one.

Acrylic tubs come with jets all the time. 99.9 % of jetted tubs are acrylic in my thinking.

If you tap on the tub and get a "thud" report it's likely acrylic.
If you tap on the tub and get "clank" report it is steel.

Can't explain the interior look of the chinks.

Surely you can tell if the tub is plastic (as in acrylic) or not.



Look at the acrylic tubs if you are wanting another jetted tub, they do come with wall flanges.


All jetted acrylics I know of have a front skirt (acrylic) available. Some may have a tile-able skirt available, not sure about that. In this case I wouldn't try to tile it if you think you will have to remove it. Removable tile skirts are problematic at best. If you insist on tiling the skirt then tile it, there are ways to build in access panels. I wouldn't recommend you do that.


In this case...To "fir it out" is to extend the studs by adding an additional thickness to move the wallboard surface outward. If you are going to replace the tub this may not be necessary.

I always thought the term "fir" referred to the species of wood used way back when. Doesn't matter, that's the term. Doesn't matter what species of wood is used so don't get hung up the term.

You can "fir out" either on the face of each stud or horizontally as long as your spacing doesn't exceed 16" center to center. FIRST get your measurements, locate your new tub, then you will know if the fir out is required.

Tubs come in different lengths and widths. Typically they are 60" long. This is the critical dimension you need to worry about.

What is the EXACT measurement of the long opening of the tub cavity stud to stud?

Then, what is the measurement of the other wall, the shortest one if they are different.
Thanks.
I am already shopping. I have to move fast.
Wife thought I was almost done and now... I know you know how bad that is..

I will report back once I get a tub. It looks like MAAX and American are likely the best options for alcove installations like mine.

'later
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Old 07-16-2011, 11:41 PM   #30
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Hi guys,

It's been a while. Kept waiting for the new bathtub, which is a Maax Optik 6032.
If you could have a look at the Installation manual: http://www.maaxcollection.com/Produi...oDownload.aspx - download the 3rd pdf - unit installation and go to page 21, you will see that they show an integrated tile flange compatible installation - the same that American Standard use.

My concern is that the CBU is not run over the tiling flange.
As a reminder, I will use 1/2" CBU with Redgard and 12x12 tiles. The integrated flange is 1/4" thick.

a) Should I do as indicated there, or is the overlapping CBU + Redgard a must? I am thinking that the only way I would do the install as per Maax's instructions is if I added silicon to the bottom of the CBU and over the flange, and only then add the tile. But that would require a lot of silicon. another option is to just silicon the bottom of the CBU, Regard over the entire thing, including the tile flange, the bottom of the CBU and of course further up on the CBU. Then I would silicone the joint between the tile and the tub.

b) Just go with what they say, but Redgard all the way down to thetub, over the flange. But how will I grout with no space behind the last 1"? the height of the flange?

Thanks for your help.

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