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bath remodel project, what to expect, new methods?

2K views 12 replies 6 participants last post by  JazMan 
#1 ·
I have an ok sized kids full bath I am about to remodel. I'm in the planning stage right now and trying to get an idea on what is the current best method for doing this project.

Right now the room is a 2nd floor full bath, full tub / shower that was damaged by the previous owners so it needs ripped out and replaced, toilet, double sink vanity, bifold closet and bit of wasted space with one 32 x 32 window.

The bathroom size is about 12 ft x 9 ft, so not a huge project.

Walls are 2x4, except the exterior which is 2x6, floor is 23/32 OSB and within the span range for ceramic tile L/360 based, spacing is 16" O.C. for the joists

The tub also wasn't installed by the builder right and looks like it leaked a good bit, when you pull the access panel the studs are water damaged but not rotted, the ceiling below which is the kitchen has been patched with new drywall at least once. They also did not but anything under the tub to support it, no mortar bed, no shims nothing, it's only supported by the shower walls and the front edge (it's one of those one piece solid shower tubs made out of fiber glass)

My goal is to rip out the tub, gut the room, re-insulate the whole room correctly for sound and heat (one exterior wall). After that put in a new stand alone tub, cement backer board and tile the shower part, cement board on the floor and tile, remove the closet and replace with cabinets that look better.

Which brings me to my questions now that you have a quick idea of the scope of the project:

1) I've seen schluter systems water proofing, ditra, kerdi-board, etc. I'm thinking just do cement board in the shower with a 5 mil poly sheet behind it that overlaps the tub rim lip as a water drainage plane. Is there any reason to use a schluter product overtop of this like Kerdi? I like their system, but always saw it applied directly over drywall not Cement board.

2) any specific types of tile better for a shower? I was thinking porcelain would be the best being glazed, hard and more water resistant due to it's density.

3) any new installation methods that I should know about and research for bathrooms?

4) I am redoing the insulation with Roxul, I like the product, already did one bedroom with it and had the sound barrier type on the interior walls, really reduces sound transmission for me at least. I was thinking of doing the whole bathroom with that since it shares walls with bedrooms to help deaden the noise of a shower or fan, etc. Any concerns with this in a bathroom area? I'd have a 4 or 5 mill poly vapor barrier around the exterior part and behind the shower.

Anything else I need to know, code changes in recent years, etc?
 
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#10 ·
Hi df,

Let me first comment about how you wrote this post. I know it's the result of using your cell phone that it looks like it does. Reminds me of something I wrote when I was in the 3rd grade. Yikes, I got a head ache and was just gonna ignore it. Please try to use some paragraphs and some more punctuation next time.

There's also several mistakes when it comes to the method of installing a shower. I'll ignore the minor ones and just mention a few that might cause you problems in the future.

The main problem is you said you installed plastic, then roofing paper and then 3 coats of Redgard over the cbu. You shoulda done just one of those things, not all three. Next time I suggest you just go with the surface membrane.

As I said there's a few other mistakes, but I wanted to mention this before anyone actually thinks it's the right thing to do.

Jaz
 
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#2 ·
I'm in the process of a bath remod right now. Best thing I can say is be prepared for anything. This was supposed to be a simple redo and I kept finding more and more problems throughout the process which has caused the project to spiral a little bit. I suppose my personality has a bit to do with that as well.

Jaz will talk to tile substrates better than myself, but I'm using Ditra on the floors and kerdi-board for the shower surround. I have a hard time with drywall in the shower area as that's part of the reason for my remod to begin with. I also looked at cement board with a liquid water proofing membrane as my friends have had good results. I found the cement board was a pain to work with. I used hardibacker so perhaps the others work easier. To give an example the ceiling in the shower has two 4" cans. it took me a while to get the cement board to get everything lined up. Kerdi-board took .5 hours. The added expense was worth it to me because I'm just a slow person.

Tile/grout/cement board are not water proof, the poly behind or the liquid membrane on top of the backerboard is what provides the waterproofing. You can use kerdi over backerboard although its overkill.
 
#3 ·
You're going to have so much fun!

1) Don't waterproof both sides of the cement board, you'll create a mold sandwich. I personally have never sealed the walls of a shower (except for the bottom 12"). Water is going to be drawn down and have a very difficult time getting through tile, thinset and cement board on a vertical surface. If you have poor ventilation or are putting in a steam shower-- waterproof it all. I do make sure the seams and that bottom plane change have a good seal. I highly recommend Laticrete Hydro Ban for this (Redgard is also good). Use fabric with cracks bigger than 1/16". A gallon of Hydro Ban will run you $85 on Amazon and would be enough to do the whole shower, ceiling to tub. Vapor barrier behind is fine too.

I assume you're also putting cement board under the tub (you didn't specifically say)?

Cement board like Durock will lay flush with drywall, Hardie Backer will not. I always use Durock on the walls and Hardie Backer on the floor (where the thickness doesn't matter).

2) Either tile will work. Ceramic is fine as long as all your surface underneath is good.

3) As far as I know kerdi and laticrete are the more modern techniques out there. I hear kerdi is great stuff, I just don't like to spend the money for it.

4) Glad to hear you like Roxul...I'm moving a shower to wall that adjoins a bedroom and was planning on soundproofing....and that's what I was going to use.

5) The only other tip I have is either find a powerful tile saw with a big sliding table on craigslist, or buy one new. It makes the job so much easier. Those kinds of tools can be resold on Craigslist very easily to the next victim and winds up costing less than a rental.
 
#4 ·
Originally I had on the plan to put a 4 or 5 mill vapor barrier behind the shower backer board but like you said I was having thoughts that wasn't right since there would be two vapor layers if I did kerdi over the cement board in front.

I was thinking about under the tub also, all they did now was put 1/4" lauan plywood under it... so basically right now the floor structure goes like this Joists > construction adhesive on the joists > 23/32 OSB > 1/4" Lauan plywood > vinyl... the 1/4" ply isn't even glued down, just stapled.... my goal is to remove that 1/4" layer and do cement board over it and since it goes under the tub to continue that in that location also to make it a uniform height.

I want to also go the mortar bed route, but that is something new for me... exactly what type of mortar should be used? I was also reading to put a sheet of plastic down first, then put the bed down then put another sheet of plastic over that so the tub can be removed easily someday (in the Kohler tub instructions is where I saw this) any recommendations or concerns about doing it this way?

As for ditra, was a bit shocked by how expensive it still is... almost $400 a roll up here, but if it will help prevent tile failure it might be worth it... the kerdi is already a definite for me though
 
#5 ·
I used Sakrete sand mix (topping and bedding) for the only pan I've made. It has instructions for a shower pan.

Honestly I've never heard of putting a mortar pan under a tub. Normally a pan is so you can tile a shower floor? IDK...

In addition to water absorbing properties, the purpose of cement board under tile to prevent the movement that can compromise the tile. I think kerdi membrane is great for waterproofing walls and pans, but I have never viewed ditra as a cost-effective solution over cement board.
 
#6 ·
I'm not talking about a shower pan like you'd do to make a walk in shower, but just a bed or mortar that you set the tub into when installing to make a solid contact surface instead of an air gap between the fiberglass bottom and the floor to improve the structure's strength
 
#8 ·
I always recommended the Kerdi membrane with the Kerdi drain for stall showers, but tub enclosures are much easier and not as critical. So, for a tub surround it's a little cheaper to use liquid waterproofing and it'l work fine when done right. two - 3 coats will do.

As stated do not apply a sheet membrane on the studs.

Jaz
 
#9 ·
Hi I did this last year or the year before a to a condo from hell job. After I took the first tile guy to court and had to start over this is what I did after all the research. from wood studs (main thing to learn....) make sure your studs are straight and at 90 degree if not shim until it's as perfect as possible. If you have larger tiles 12x24 the tolerance is 1/8" or breakage. If your walls are out of square and not wavvy your install will be a major problem... you're suppose to have a vapor barrier I used 6 mil plastic stapled and I think I glued it to the wood on the tub side insulation on the other side with the paper cut in the center as you don't want mold. then I had roofing paper then the studs then cement board then 3 layers of red guard thickness of a credit card (I had to do that instead of the kerdi because of cost.) Basically one gallon for a standard tub. Next part took me days to resolve but it was the tub lip vs cement board height. I also added silicone between the cement board inside toward the studs so water would not go under the cement board and tile about 1/8" gap where the cement board ends above the tub lip if that makes sense. Next thing I didn't do which you should do is add water proof grout mix (forgot what it is called but this will elmininate having to seal your grout later. Sorry head is a little foggy so I might have made an error on the plastic and the roof paper someone with more experience will chime in. Last thing is my stupid plumber didn't solder the main water spout tube so when I finally did turn water on it went straight down the wall... PS. I added an emergency valve on the water lines with an access hole on the other side of the tub (closet) might not be a big deal in a house but in a condo it is a good idea.
 
#11 ·
ok after a few moths of planning... finally am ready to start this project... here's how I am planning on doing my tub install, anyone see any issues with any of this?

this is a 3 wall alcove tub, already framed out as 16" O.C. wood 2x4 walls. The tub is a kohler fiberglass alcove tub (since I'm doing this pretty much by myself with minimal help going cast iron was out of the question).

1) First thing I'm going to do is cover the floor in 1/4" Cement board (Durock brand) including the area under the tub, get that all screwed down with the appropriate cement board screws, the alkaline resistant ones then mesh tape, and go over the seams with the thinset that is recommended.

2) after that is installed, make sure the floor is level under the tub, figure out my level line for where the tub nail fin will sit at and dry fit the tub.

2A) For sound proofing behind the shower I will be putting roxul in the stud cavities since it's a shared wall with a bedroom. anything I need to take into consideration having roxul behind a tub / shower wall?

3) lay down a layer of mortar for the tub to rest in, kohler is recommending 2" of mortar except where the drain is and where the leveling feet are on the tub base

4) place tub into the moartar bed and get it leveled out, screw to studs. I assume at this point I need to get the drain installed fast and put some water weight into the tub? I've read conflicting statements on what to do here, or just throw a couple of bags of sand in to hold it down? what would you recommend? Also should I put plastic down on the floor before the mortar so it could possibly be replaced some day easily? not sure on this one either

5) after mortar bed is set, shim out the studs with 1/4" plywood to flush it out to the nailing fin, attached with construction adheasive and nails

6) rough in plumbing all done for shower, drain, and mixer valve

7) cement board install using 1/2" durock board to be flush with drywall, durock will run from tub to ceiling leaving a small gap near the tub to be filled with Schluter Kerdi FIX as recommended by Schluter. Seams taped and filled with thinset as recommended. Screwed to studs with appropriate alkaline resistant (coated) screws

8) Kerdi membrane (regular not the DS one) applied to bath walls with unmodified thinset, this will be the water barrier, kerdi opening covers applied with unmodified thinset also to the mixer valve, shower and tub spouts to seal them from moisture.

9) after that's all set standard tiling procedure with unmodified thinset since the kerdi and the tiles will both require it (porcelain tile)
 
#12 ·
Here's the BEST POSSIBLE ADVICE I'VE GOT-GO DIRECTLY TO THE JOHN BRIDGE TILE FORUM AND ASK THERE!!! Now, DIY Chatroom is GREAT, I'm here a lot even of I don't sign in, usually don't have to since I find what I need, but doing tiling RIGHT in a wet area especially can get complex and you've already been told a few questionable things-except for the JazzMan, who's right on, but go to JB tile forum and ask there, for instance anyone describing their "mold makin monster" tub surround with 27 diff waterproofing items will get shot down FAST on Bridge forum, mods are all REAL FULL TIME TILE PROS, not some clown that's got everything from roofing to tile to relining all the wife's underwear drawers and just got back from an 8 year stretch for that armed robbery he did!
 
#13 ·
Hi all,

Blue, sorry I didn't address your post of nearly 3 weeks ago, I was out of town.

1. You made no mention of applying thinset mortar under the Durock before fastening etc. That step is critical, do it.

Follow the directions that comes with your tub for the other steps.

9. Yes, use a premium unmodified thinset mortar to install Kerdi and the tiles. Can you tell us which brand and specific mortar you can get where you are? Finding a good quality unmod is not easy for most DIY'ers.

Jaz
 
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