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Old 05-08-2013, 10:52 AM   #16
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To back butter or not to back butter?


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Originally Posted by jeffnc View Post

What do you mean by "edges"? The outside area of the bottom of the tile, as opposed to the middle? Or the side edges of the tile, not on the bottom?

If you mean the first, then your way is bad. In fact, it could be worse than not back buttering at all. What you're doing is making it more likely that the outer edges will not be adhered when you install the tile, and this is the most vulnerable area of the tile. If you're going to only back butter part of the tile, then it would be better to butter the outer edges, and leave the middle clear. (As in the Tavy video, just "buttering" the corners of the tiles would help avoid cracking when rolling a refrigerator over it.) But of course that is silly, back butter the whole tile.

If you mean the second, then of course no one is going to butter the side edges of the tile, that's silly.
Not the sides....the edges and corners is what I'm talking about covering the entire tile.

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Old 05-08-2013, 01:39 PM   #17
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To back butter or not to back butter?


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Not the sides....the edges and corners is what I'm talking about covering the entire tile.
OK, well I'm curious how you might think that buttering only the middle part of the tile could be advantageous.
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Old 05-08-2013, 02:13 PM   #18
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To back butter or not to back butter?


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Originally Posted by jeffnc View Post

OK, well I'm curious how you might think that buttering only the middle part of the tile could be advantageous.
Because it works for me and I'm not about to change things because of some videos on youtube.
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Old 05-08-2013, 07:19 PM   #19
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To back butter or not to back butter?


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Because it works for me and I'm not about to change things because of some videos on youtube.
Now I'm curious to know why you think it "works" for you. It probably hasn't failed in spite of your technique, not because of it.

You wouldn't do it because of "some videos on youtube". You'd do it because of the laws of physics.
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Old 05-08-2013, 07:42 PM   #20
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To back butter or not to back butter?


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Now I'm curious to know why you think it "works" for you. It probably hasn't failed in spite of your technique, not because of it.

You wouldn't do it because of "some videos on youtube". You'd do it because of the laws of physics.
No it hasn't failed and I'm positive I'm not the only one that doesn't cove 100% of tile when back buttering....but you know what...ill do it next time I have to back butter just to end this topic on why I have to be different then the rest weather who is right.
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:15 PM   #21
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To back butter or not to back butter?


Once again our friend Mark (JetSwet) has left me almost speechless with a few of his comments. No point in reviewing all the errors and very bad advice.

Back-buttering is a very good practice & mandatory in many applications.
Back-Butter-Buddy; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF2Sg...layer_embedded

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:53 PM   #22
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To back butter or not to back butter?


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You shouldn't butter the entire back like the guy in your video and defently shouldn't push down so hard.... he totally defeated the purposes of trowling.
What are the purposes of troweling?
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Old 05-09-2013, 06:27 AM   #23
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To back butter or not to back butter?


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Originally Posted by jeffnc View Post

What are the purposes of troweling?
Well depending of size of tile requires the right size trowel to give you proper depth and adhesive of your setting material. if you get thinset coming out the sides you pushed down to much....not good.... if you set the tile and move it up and down more then once...that's improper as well. Just remember when you back butter your should be doing in a large format tile therefore requiring the notches on your trowel to be deeper then regular giving you more depth...now if you squash the lines entirely its not good.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:05 AM   #24
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To back butter or not to back butter?


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Just remember when you back butter your should be doing in a large format tile therefore requiring the notches on your trowel to be deeper then regular giving you more depth...now if you squash the lines entirely its not good.
If you do not squash down the lines entirely, it's impossible to get full coverage. Remember, back buttering the tiles does not give coverage by itself. It only helps the tile make contact with the thinset on the floor. The only "coverage" that counts is contact with the thinset on the floor. See my previous post on why the YouTube video was misleading about that.

If you lightly set the tile on the lines, you're going to get 50-60% coverage. If you push down slightly more, you're going to get 70-80% coverage. Only by fulling squashing the lines can you get 100% coverage, or close to it.
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Old 05-09-2013, 09:00 AM   #25
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To back butter or not to back butter?


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If you do not squash down the lines entirely, it's impossible to get full coverage. Remember, back buttering the tiles does not give coverage by itself. It only helps the tile make contact with the thinset on the floor. The only "coverage" that counts is contact with the thinset on the floor. See my previous post on why the YouTube video was misleading about that.

If you lightly set the tile on the lines, you're going to get 50-60% coverage. If you push down slightly more, you're going to get 70-80% coverage. Only by fulling squashing the lines can you get 100% coverage, or close to it.
I think we will have to disagree.... the setting tile is only as good as troweling. Your coverage is made by your trowel lines. Its the hold that is the key, and if you have flat spots on top of your trowel lines then your tile will not hold to the thinset. These are different meathods of tiling imo. The larger the tile the weeker if will be in the middle and that is why I BB middle and not the ends....it all support not coverage. Ill treat the same from a floor install to a wall install.

Like I said before there are reasons why us tilers trowel thinset... its not recommend to adjust the hight of your tile after its been layed only slightly. Collapsing your thinset lines defeats the purpose regualess what size tile you have.
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Old 05-09-2013, 03:22 PM   #26
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To back butter or not to back butter?


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Originally Posted by JazMan View Post
Once again our friend Mark (JetSwet) has left me almost speechless with a few of his comments. No point in reviewing all the errors and very bad advice.

Back-buttering is a very good practice & mandatory in many applications.
Back-Butter-Buddy; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF2Sg...layer_embedded

Jaz
I'm suprised I made the grandmaster "Speechless".....
Like I said when I first started here at the forum in the real world there are only a few methods that truly work for tiling.
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Old 05-09-2013, 05:15 PM   #27
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To back butter or not to back butter?


Oh boy, do we have to start with Tiling 101?

In addition to the BBB (Back Butter Buddy) video above, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF2Sg...layer_embedded also study Trowel & Error from the NTCA & NCNA

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Old 05-09-2013, 06:19 PM   #28
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To back butter or not to back butter?


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Your coverage is made by your trowel lines. Its the hold that is the key, and if you have flat spots on top of your trowel lines then your tile will not hold to the thinset.
This is absolute nonsense. We're not going to agree to disagree because you're just flat out wrong and it's not a matter of opinion or different methods.

This is what full coverage looks like.
http://inspectapedia.com/BestPractices/Figure6-39.jpg

The ridges are gone, and the tile is completely covered with thinset. This is accomplished by squashing down the ridges.

If you're getting too much thinset squashing up the sides, you're doing it wrong.

There is one primary reason for troweling on thinset with a notched trowel. It's because there's no other easy way to get a consistent depth of thinset across the entire substrate. A side effect of that is that air has a place to escape when you press the tile down. If it weren't for that, you'd squash the ridges down first before setting the tile. In fact that's exactly what you should do after troweling for small mosaic tile. That helps keep the thinset from squishing up between the thin little tiles.

But under no circumstances should tile be sitting on top of ridges.

I take that back. If I wanted to make sure the tile was easy to pull up so it was easy to replace in a few months, then I'd set the tile on top of the ridges.

Last edited by jeffnc; 05-09-2013 at 06:28 PM.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:10 PM   #29
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To back butter or not to back butter?


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Originally Posted by jeffnc View Post

This is absolute nonsense. We're not going to agree to disagree because you're just flat out wrong and it's not a matter of opinion or different methods.

This is what full coverage looks like.
http://inspectapedia.com/BestPractices/Figure6-39.jpg

The ridges are gone, and the tile is completely covered with thinset. This is accomplished by squashing down the ridges.

If you're getting too much thinset squashing up the sides, you're doing it wrong.

There is one primary reason for troweling on thinset with a notched trowel. It's because there's no other easy way to get a consistent depth of thinset across the entire substrate. A side effect of that is that air has a place to escape when you press the tile down. If it weren't for that, you'd squash the ridges down first before setting the tile. In fact that's exactly what you should do after troweling for small mosaic tile. That helps keep the thinset from squishing up between the thin little tiles.

But under no circumstances should tile be sitting on top of ridges.

I take that back. If I wanted to make sure the tile was easy to pull up so it was easy to replace in a few months, then I'd set the tile on top of the ridges.
I'm glad you think this is the 1st time I have encounterd this scenario and that my method is wrong but I will explain to you that there is a big difference when you are knee deep in tile jobs and seting tiles and to know what works and what could work and what doesn't work.

I know I'm getting 100% coverage when I lay my tile or damm well close too it and that tile isn't going anywhere and it doest sound hollow.

Do you want me to pull tiles up that I've layed to get a number of coverage when I installed them?....I didn't think so.

There is a difference between paper and real life tiling. You can fly around the internet and the results will still be deflicting because not every tiler installs the same exact way.

I think this needs to end its disagreement not who is wrong believe me.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:11 PM   #30
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To back butter or not to back butter?


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Originally Posted by JazMan View Post
Oh boy, do we have to start with Tiling 101?

In addition to the BBB (Back Butter Buddy) video above, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF2Sg...layer_embedded also study Trowel & Error from the NTCA & NCNA

Jaz
Lol... you are promoting or selling tile toys at your store now?...

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