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Old 01-31-2011, 10:45 AM   #16
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Is this a lousy granite installation?


That is the worst granite job I have ever seen! Either you were trying to go cheap with the cheapest bid and didn't stay to see what they were putting in, or they just out and out scammed you!

They didn't even try, and must not be a reputable company, because the first MUST in the granite industry is to have the whole counter top come out of the same slab cut from the quarry. It is a natural stone that will not match other slabs, its as simple as that. That is why granite companies from around the world trade with each other as only some colors are available at particular quarries. SECOND, that is the absolute worst place to join two pieces of countertop together, right at the narrowest and most vulnerable spot, where there is a sink cutout that weakens the piece. All joints should try and be placed in the corners as that is the least noticeable and is safer from damage then the placement you got.

Did you sign any contract with them, I would pull that out and read the fine print. But from the looks of the job and the way you described some of it, I very much doubt you signed any contract that is substantial at all. Sorry to say but I think you are at the point where you need to rip it out and start over. The granite that you have installed (I hate to say) detracts from the home, being that if I were interested in the house, I would come into it knowing that not only do I need to pay for a new countertop but I need to dispose of all that granite.

Let us know how everything shakes out, and if it were me I would post a few of the pictures with the name of the company underneath them to the Better Business Bureau, and other sites, and send them an email stating what you did. It won't take long for a company like this to be out of business.

Companies like this just infuriate me!

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Old 01-31-2011, 12:12 PM   #17
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Is this a lousy granite installation?


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That is the worst granite job I have ever seen! Either you were trying to go cheap with the cheapest bid and didn't stay to see what they were putting in, or they just out and out scammed you!

They didn't even try, and must not be a reputable company, because the first MUST in the granite industry is to have the whole counter top come out of the same slab cut from the quarry. It is a natural stone that will not match other slabs, its as simple as that. That is why granite companies from around the world trade with each other as only some colors are available at particular quarries. SECOND, that is the absolute worst place to join two pieces of countertop together, right at the narrowest and most vulnerable spot, where there is a sink cutout that weakens the piece. All joints should try and be placed in the corners as that is the least noticeable and is safer from damage then the placement you got.




Did you sign any contract with them, I would pull that out and read the fine print. But from the looks of the job and the way you described some of it, I very much doubt you signed any contract that is substantial at all. Sorry to say but I think you are at the point where you need to rip it out and start over. The granite that you have installed (I hate to say) detracts from the home, being that if I were interested in the house, I would come into it knowing that not only do I need to pay for a new countertop but I need to dispose of all that granite.

Let us know how everything shakes out, and if it were me I would post a few of the pictures with the name of the company underneath them to the Better Business Bureau, and other sites, and send them an email stating what you did. It won't take long for a company like this to be out of business.

Companies like this just infuriate me!
Nice reply! Completely agree. I would rip that countertop out asap, as it would create anxiety everytime I looked at it......
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Old 01-31-2011, 12:41 PM   #18
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Is this a lousy granite installation?


and you don't want ym mad at you thats for sure
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Old 01-31-2011, 01:21 PM   #19
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Is this a lousy granite installation?


That looks like a DIY install gone wrong...

I'm not the suing type but I'd call the owner and give them 1 last shot to make it right. Then a filing in small claims court for the cost of their "work" and removal and disposal.

Good luck.
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:03 PM   #20
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Is this a lousy granite installation?


'Maine on Little Sebago'? Now is that the world's coolest sounding place to come from or what?

No, this is a local granite store that's very handy to our home - that's 90% of the reason we went there - it just happened to be round the corner, they seemed to present well, and the prices came over as pretty decent. They supplied the granite, the sink, the labor - the lot. It was the first place we tried, and all the indicators seemed to suggest that we had made a decent choice.

Knowing what I do now, having received so much additional information due to my online concerns, we obviously would have applied ourselves more diligently to the task of ensuring that we received a quality product all round. As I said, this was our first time round with granite, and I thought I had done enough to communicate what was required and to suggest where there might be issues. But hindsight is a wonderful thing as they say, and under the circumstances we went on gut instinct, only to be misled. I also didn't realize that a granite installation could be screwed up as royally as ours was!

@ Love for construction.
No we didn't go out of our way to cheapen out. The price we got was fine, but we didn't shop around looking for the cheapest deal - they just happened to be the closest place to us - a mere five minutes away. If possible I like to give local business first shot, and I should also add that we bought tile from them before which I laid in the kitchen myself. Obviously the fact I did the job myself is completely different to having them do the granite install, but having had one transaction go well, and having been in the store on a number of occasions to a point where I was reasonably familiar with the owner and his wife, it just created a sense that we thought they knew what they were doing. Obviously we couldn't have been more wrong, not least in the manner in which the owner kept trying to play games over the matter and trying to suggest that we were being unreasonable SOB's angling for an edge.

I did watch them at work for the first half hour or so, and all seemed to be well as they maneuvered the corner piece in place. . After that I left them to the task as I didn't want to linger round as a distraction seemingly fussing over every little point of their work - none of us would like someone hanging around looking over our shoulders to see if we were doing our work competently, right? I like to treat everyone as I would like to be treated myself, and I simply left them to it trusting in their competency to perform the task at hand. It was only when I came in as they were finishing up that I looked on horrified at the mismatched slab and the gaps that had been left.

As for your other point, you literally took the words right out of my mouth. I said to my wife that half the point to getting the granite, aside for aesthetic reasons, was that it added value to the kitchen and our home. I think the words I used to my wife were 'Now all that will happen is that as soon as someone lays eyes on the counter tops, they're going to start factoring in how much it's going to cost to replace them!'. So in a sense we get slugged twice - once for the outlay we've made, second for the value that will get deducted later on to replace the granite.

I'd also point out that I've since found something else that is going to prove a pain - when they applied silicone underneath the front edge as a seal between the granite and the top edge of the cabinets, they were sloppy and allowed some of the silicone to slop onto the top edge of a drawer. When I removed it I found that the silicone had taken away most of the finish where it had been sitting, and I'm going to have to touch it up without making the job look obvious. Thankfully I've already bought a gallon of the appropriate stain, as well as the finish, to do some crown molding for the kitchen, so it hopefully won't be too hard a task.

A question though? I had actually expected the join to go at the corner, as that's the way I've seen it done in store displays and some friend's homes, but I've also seen the join done at the sinks and cooktops. Why is it actually bad to put the joins at the sink, when the joins overall would be much less visible (say 6" at the front of the sink and 6" at the back) than a nearly 3' foot join in the corners? It isn't just the aesthetic, but the practical - wouldn't a slab with a cutout in the middle for the sink be much more vulnerable to breakage, either at the installation stage or later, than having a join at the weak spot that will give rather than break? Or are they supposed to put the slab in place first, then do the sink cutout once the granite is solidly bedded down and safe from the kind of stress that might break it at the narrow points created by the cutout?

@ Yummy yummy. Stress every time I look at it? That, and a few other choice things that I can't really express out of politeness!

As of today the owner of the business called and claimed that he would replace the offending piece and give me the choice of selecting the appropriate section of granite to slot in. As already stated though, unless the other associated slabs of granite comes from exactly the same spot the chances are pretty remote that I'll find a match.

By the way, how long are slabs of granite as a rule? The reason I ask is that I took a look at the three sections of granite used for the main part of the kitchen and realized that the piece on the other end of the L (where our cooktop is) was cut off from the other side of the corner piece. In other words, had it been left in place the corner piece would have extended down past the sink area and gone to within 18" of the end on that side of the kitchen. That side of the L is 11' long (the cooktop side is 9')- too long for a single cut?

Last edited by timbo59; 01-31-2011 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 01-31-2011, 09:51 PM   #21
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Is this a lousy granite installation?


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, as that's the way I've seen it done in store displays and some friend's homes, but I've also seen the join done at the sinks and cooktops. Why is it actually bad to put the joins at the sink, when the joins overall would be much less visible (say 6" at the front of the sink and 6" at the back) than a nearly 3' foot join in the corners?
natural stone counters are actually quite fragile. The material is very rigid and brittle.


That makes the area in front of the sink very weak and susceptible to breakage. The cabinets offer much less support in that spot. People lean on that spot.

putting a joint there simply makes that joint very susceptible to it breaking.

I used to do some work for a granite company. They would actually route out the narrow area (underneath) larger enough to put a threaded rod in the groove. They would then epoxy that rod in to help provide some strength to the area.
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:01 PM   #22
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Is this a lousy granite installation?


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and you don't want ym mad at you thats for sure
yes, never make any yummy mummy mad.......
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Old 01-31-2011, 10:04 PM   #23
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Is this a lousy granite installation?


@Nap. Interesting. Funny enough, having been a woodworker myself for many years I had concerns about that from the opposite perspective, as I felt the wide sink and cooktop base cabinets weren't stiff enough to give decent support to the granite - there was too much spring due to poor construction and lack of vertical support between the doors. As the cooktop cabinet had false drawer fronts I solved that problem by fitting and screwing a plank of wood tightly in the slot behind the drawers, eliminating any give. When I get the time I'll put a vertical strip in place between the doors of the sink cabinet to stiffen up the middle. In the meantime I've told both my wife and the kids to be aware that hardness does not denote stiffness, and that they aren't to put undue weight on the granite at those weak points.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:32 AM   #24
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Is this a lousy granite installation?


By the owner telling you that YOU could choose the piece to match is just him putting the ball in your court, which will let him off the hook if no match can be found. He is putting all the work and time to search out a match on you, which is doubtful to match. If a match is not found then he is off the hook as he put that responsibility on you. That should not be your responsibility, that is his way of protecting himself. Is he going to give you samples of the granite to place next to your install? I don't think so, let him do it.

Another reason a joint should never be at a sink or cook top is the joint can leak and swell the substrate or rot it no matter how well it is sealed, that seal can fail later.
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Old 02-01-2011, 09:59 AM   #25
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Is this a lousy granite installation?


I have never heard of picking pieces of granite to match.

When you pick your granite, you go to the place that has the very large slabs, and you pick the slab you want, and then the countertop is cut from that slab ONLY.
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Old 02-01-2011, 11:11 AM   #26
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Is this a lousy granite installation?


@jiju1943.

Oh believe me, there's no way I'm walking back into this with the guy concerned not being on my guard. I already had considered the issue that we might not be able to get a match and that he's simply trying to avoid responsibility by saying it was my selection second time round. But the point is that if we can't get a match, I'm going to say as much and give him the option of replacing the entire thing or refunding our money.

As for sample, no, what I intend doing is taking pictures of the area concerned, printing them off (and making sure the color of the photo's match the granite) then taking them round to hold up directly to the slab until I (hopefully) find the necessary match. That's better than samples.

At this stage though I'm not considering it likely that we'll get the exact match that we need, but legally I think I have to go through the process to negate any attempt on his part to say that we weren't willing to try and resolve the issue from that angle.
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Old 02-01-2011, 12:15 PM   #27
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Is this a lousy granite installation?


Timbo

Did you bring Mr AND Mrs business owner to your house to look at the product their company provided?
I'll bet MRS would be appalled by what Hubby's boys did.

In my opinion, the unacceptable items are:
  • Improper fit/scribes to wall
  • Sink cutout not matching actual sink
  • Silicone dripping down the cabinet face

These are workmanship issues

Thickness, color & grain can be attributed to the nature of the beast but it is the responsibility of the business to provide you with a product that meets standard building expectations.

That means they owe you their experience and ability to match those grains and cut the slab to get the closest color match possible.

Boy this stuff pisses me offsorry...........

Please keep us posted...........

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Old 02-01-2011, 01:09 PM   #28
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Is this a lousy granite installation?


Don't be sorry tcleve, I am too.....

Timbo, do you have a Tv station that deals with consumer complaints in your area? You can collect all the facts, and write to them about this installation.

If you do, tell the famous installer that if he doesn't fix it, you will expose him to the media. I don't think he would want that for his business.

Timbo, from now on, come here before you do anything.....I do.......
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:23 PM   #29
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Is this a lousy granite installation?


@YY - No, we don't have a consumer report (as far as I'm aware of) here in Orlando. But what we do have is a newspaper with a consumer complaint section, and I've already told the people concerned that I have no problem sending along pictures of the work - as I said to them, I think the photo's make as eloquent a case for the state of the work done as anything I could possibly say.

As far as asking for views prior to work, I generally do follow such a course of action in areas I'm a little unsure on. In this instance, as I've already stated, we got caught out due to a set of circumstances that worked against us.

We'll just wait and see how this pans out.

Thanks to all for their contributions and support. It certainly helped set our minds at ease regarding what we considered a fairly rotten job.
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Old 02-01-2011, 07:59 PM   #30
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Is this a lousy granite installation?


If it makes you feel any better, it doesn't look too bad. The bad news is, depending on what your contract (bill of sale / receipt) says, when the final payment is made the deal is done, and you have what you have. If you wanted to battle this in court, you ideally want to have a written document, signed by both parties (or a document provided to you by the company) that specifically states that there would be no visible or minor gaps not exceeding a certain size between the cabinet and slab. As far as the color difference; you're basically screwed. Color matching seams is typically at the discretion of the company, unless in your paperwork, you specifically mention that you must approve all seams before they're made. Same holds true to the sink cutout; without specifications of what the tolerances are, as long as the company makes a professional attempt, you have little fighting power.

To kind of shorten it up; if you have specifications of what's allowed, and not allowed (tolerances), you can go to small claims and say "the gap between the cabinet and slab exceeded our agreed measurement of X millimeters, this installation does not satisfy the agreement, I want my money back." Without that, you need to show the judge that the installation was not of a professional standard, and that will be hard to do. Even if you showed him/her a picture of a professional installation, and then yours, the judge may think you're just being anal. Also, I'm no lawyer, I do software development, we write and accept agreements whenever we work with outside companies.

So, sorry to hear about your kitchen; I will say this again, overall it looks great. And even if you don't find a resolution with the company, you have great counter tops, that will last for a while. Keep us posted.

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