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Old 01-20-2009, 11:16 PM   #1
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gutted bathroom, have some questions and looking for ideas


Hey everyone, well i got my first house, and my first project is the bath. It is now gutted besides the cieling. I have some questions and ideas are great if you guys have them... my bath is small. about 8 feet long and about 7 feet wide. i have an access to the attic and also basement as its a ranch

-the painted drywall cieling is still up. leave it or tear it? I kinda figured it would be easier to just leave it, seems its in an ok condition.
-the floor under the tub is like 1 by 6 planks. is this ok? or should i throw plywood down?
-what are you thoughts about exhaust fan over the shower with a recessed light all built in together. have you guys seen this before? all i find is simple lights not recessed/fan
-thinking about putting a speaker on the cieling also, thoughts on this? the player will be ran from the computer room.
-i will insulate all the walls
-i know electric so i will redo the electric.
-what kind of walls should i put up? green mold board or is there some other kind?
-also on the joints should i use tape or fiberglass tape?
-on the outside corner do i have to use that metal frame to make my corner, or is that not necessary?
-tiles are going on the ground plus on the bathtub walls, any recommendations on type of material for non slip?
-anything i should do while its gutted? or look for or etc etc?

Ideas are great if you guys like to add some. or even pics are fine also. thanks

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Old 01-21-2009, 06:55 AM   #2
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Stay away from paper faced drywall. Use Densarmor fiberglass faced with fiberglass tape and their drywall mud. That will help prevent any mold issues down the road. In a bathroom, I'd use a plastic outside corner. Use Kerdi behind the tiles walls to waterproof them. The floor under the tub depends on what condition it's in as to whether I'd replace it. Personally, I'd rip the ceiling and replace that with glass faced drywall as well. Reinsulate above it and install a good vapor retarder while it's open.

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Old 01-21-2009, 09:26 AM   #3
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can you provide some links to the fiberglass board and other stuff you recommended? i cant seem to find it at hd and lowes
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Old 01-21-2009, 10:46 AM   #4
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-the painted drywall cieling is still up. leave it or tear it? I kinda figured it would be easier to just leave it, seems its in an ok condition.
Since you've gone this far, I'd tear it out. This will also give you better access to install a new vent fan and or recessed light above shower.

-the floor under the tub is like 1 by 6 planks. is this ok? or should i throw plywood down?
Only if overall finished floor height will be an issue.

-what are you thoughts about exhaust fan over the shower with a recessed light all built in together. have you guys seen this before? all i find is simple lights not recessed/fan
I believe it may be OK to do this BUT the fan/light would have to be hooked to a GFI circuit (if that style of light even exists). I believe it would be better to separate the 2. Get a nice fan and install it about 3' outside the tub area and get an IC-rated recessed fixture with shower trim for inside the enclosure.

-thinking about putting a speaker on the cieling also, thoughts on this? the player will be ran from the computer room.
That's all up to you but if you do it, consider an exterior rated speaker since it will be exposed to moisture.

-i will insulate all the walls
If you waterproof the walls around the enclosure, you should use unfaced fiberglass batts. The waterproofing acts as a vapor barrier already. I don't see a need to insulate interior walls other than maybe to deaden some of the plumbing noise.

-i know electric so i will redo the electric.
Make sure you follow your local building codes. Submit your electrical plans to your building inspector for approval before you start. Hate to see you do things twice (or wrong).

-what kind of walls should i put up? green mold board or is there some other kind?
For the non-wet location walls, I use DensArmor. The product is made buy GP and is sold at Lowes or Menards (if you're in the midwest).

-also on the joints should i use tape or fiberglass tape?
If you're going through the motions of water-mold proofing, absolutely use fiberglass tape. GP also makes a drywall compound for the paperless drywall called DensArmor Cote. It's sold at most Lowes (not all stock it).

-on the outside corner do i have to use that metal frame to make my corner, or is that not necessary?
You need some kind of prefinished corner strip. Otherwise just attempting to form a perfect 90
corner with drywall compound will be pretty hard to accomplish and it will have no strength. First bump into it and it will break.

-tiles are going on the ground plus on the bathtub walls, any recommendations on type of material for non slip?
Best tile for a bathroom (IMO) is porcelain. Lots of styles to choose from and probably the best performing tile made. Never needs to be sealed and can be cleaned easily.


-anything i should do while its gutted? or look for or etc etc?
I like to take advantage of a gutted room by using foam to fill any holes of utilities penetrating the studs. If you have plumbing running through the studs, spray a little foam around them as well as any of the top plates. This will stop air infiltration into the wall cavities. Also, you can consider adding blocking for any future items you may want to hang on the wall. Added support is always a good thing. Example...a big heavy mirror or even some towel racks. I don't always feel comfortable just using drywall to support items that need to be attached to the wall.


Don't forget about planning for the tile. If you want to do it properly, plan now. You need some kind of tile backer board in the tub surround area. I suggest using DensShield (also called DensGuard at Lowes). It's also made by GP. It is a true tile backer board but is different than the typical cement backer material you may be used to. It cuts like drywall and is much lighter than cement board. After that is installed with alkali-resistant screws and the seams addressed with alkali-resistant tape, cover with a coat of thinset. I'd HIGHLY recommend waterproofing the surround at this point. Kerdi is what I choose to use. It a membrane that is hung in the surround area by using non-modified thinset over the backer board. It's like hanging wallpaper. You can then tile directly over that. For the floor, you need to make sure the subfloor system can handle a tile installation. Since you have basement access, go down there and measure:
joist size (2x10?)
joist spacing (from center to center of each board)
joist unsupported span (how long between support for each end of the joist)
Look at the joists. Make sure there aren't holes drilled in them for utilities (plumbing, HVAC, etc)
Report back and we can tell you how the joists look.
What is the subfloor material? Planks? Planks over a tongue and groove plywood? How thick?

I can post a few pics shortly.
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Last edited by angus242; 01-21-2009 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 01-21-2009, 11:12 AM   #5
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pic#1: foam around the sill plate plumbing
pic#2: DensArmor Cote
pic#3: DensArmor.
pic#4: Kerdi in shower area
Attached Thumbnails
gutted bathroom, have some questions and looking for ideas-foam.jpg   gutted bathroom, have some questions and looking for ideas-denscote.jpg   gutted bathroom, have some questions and looking for ideas-densshield.jpg   gutted bathroom, have some questions and looking for ideas-kerdi.jpg  
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Old 01-21-2009, 12:44 PM   #6
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angus, thanks for the very detailed reply! this kerdi. seems like im having a problem finding it online at my local hd or lowes. is this available at these home centers? for the outside corners, what is your opinion on the paper corners they sell at home depot, or vinyl? so use densgaurd for behind my bathtub tiles on the wall. should i go all the way to the cieling with the wall tiles or stop? if i do stop should i put the dens armor up to the cieling from where the tiles end? you said cover it with a layer of thinset. can you explain this part? or even a link please. for the floor tiles. right now there are planks and then plywood on top. do i have to add some type of cement board for the floor tiles?
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:06 PM   #7
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this kerdi. seems like im having a problem finding it online at my local hd or lowes. is this available at these home centers?
Home Depot carries Schluter products. They stock some of the more common products but may have to special order others. Schluter is the company that makes Kerdi as well as Ditra (more on that later).

for the outside corners, what is your opinion on the paper corners they sell at home depot, or vinyl?
Stay away from paper. The point of constructing a bathroom to be moisture and mold resistant is to elminate the food source for mold. Paper is a food source.

so use densgaurd for behind my bathtub tiles on the wall. should i go all the way to the cieling with the wall tiles or stop? if i do stop should i put the dens armor up to the cieling from where the tiles end?
Use a tile backer where ever you plan on installing tile. For a tub/shower enclosure, I recommend tiling to the ceiling. You will stop the tile backer where ever the tile will stop (walls). It would be OK to overlap the tile onto drywall a bit but this should be outside of the shower surround. Kerdi will also be where ever you'd tile. Kerdi can be installed over the drywall too, again, outside of the surround area.

you said cover it with a layer of thinset. can you explain this part? or even a link please.
http://www.schluter.com/6436.aspx
There are videos on their website. Watch one of the shower installation ones. A tub surround is a bit different for the fact you don't tile to the floor. There is a handbook you can download that shows the procedure for Kerdi and a tub.

for the floor tiles. right now there are planks and then plywood on top. do i have to add some type of cement board for the floor tiles?
Please supply the info I requested earlier. Your subfloor system needs to be a minimum "stiffness" to achieve a successful tile installation. I can calculate to a cetain degree what your subfloor deflection ratio is.
In lieu of cement board over the floor, I recommend Ditra. When you're on the Schluter website, look at the Ditra section too.
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Old 01-22-2009, 06:43 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by fabian View Post
Hey everyone, well i got my first house, and my first project is the bath.
I'm in the same boat except that it's my third project after windows and floors. Currently unfortunately have two gutted baths which is rather inconvenient.

Quote:
It is now gutted besides the cieling.
I pulled my ceiling for two reasons, first the bozo's who built the place put the fan on top of the drywall ceiling without adequate support and over time it bowed it something fierce. Additionally, part way through I decided I might as well tile the entire wet area including the ceiling. So I hung 1/2" Hardibacker.

It's great stuff but it needs a lot of support. I unfortunately have 24" studs which is not enough. Every joint between the backer board needs to be supported. My walls are insanely built up at this point as a result, but it's built like a tank. Also my wish for you is that the original carpenters who built yours were more competent than the ones that build mine. The walls and studs were seriously out of square and alignment. There was no way hardi would have gone over them the way they were. I think they say the max deflection for that stuff is like 1/16" or something. One wall was particularly bad and I had to shim out the one of the studs by about 3/8" with plywood to get the wall perfectly plane.

Quote:
I have some questions and ideas are great if you guys have them... my bath is small. about 8 feet long and about 7 feet wide.
Small? My friend that is not small. Mine is 5 X 7, now that is small. Plan as far ahead as you can. Pick out everything but the shower curtain. Decide what light sconces you want to use. They say to avoid top light over the mirror and to use side lighting if possible. I had such a tiny amount of space between the medicine cab and the wall that I had a really hard time finding a sconce that would fit there.

Get everything planned so that you can fir it out properly. As has been suggested don't hang your shower curtain rod from wall !! Pick one out, measure it, and install suitable support for it so that it you can do chin ups on it if you want to.

Since you consider your space to be small, think about recessing all of your cabinets. I did this with two cabs that weren't even designed to be recessed but they look great and provide a lot of storage without sticking far out and making the room feel claustrophobic.

I don't really think you need to have the fan over the tub. My new one is in the center of the room, and I think it will do fine there. I also considered a light over the tub just because I thought it would look cool. I ended up deciding that it was serious overkill, and that ambient light was more than enough for that particular activity.

I settled for a fan/light combo in the ceiling, two halogen sconces on the sides of the mirror and a cool little recessed light installed under the medicine cab bottom that lights the pedestal sink. Don't ask me why. It just looks cool. I figured it would be a good nightlight.

As far as tile, definately something not too porous. Natural stone may be all the rage right now, but I'm a bit of a germophobe and I don't see how you could keep something like that clean over time.

What are you planning for holding things in the shower area? I decided against racks and soap dishes, and installed a Noble Niche. I just installed it a few days back and it only took a couple of hours. I think it's a really nice solution to the grubby soap dish, and shampoo bottles stacked all over the place problem.

How old is your plumbing tubset? They aren't expensive and aren't hard to change. This would definately be the time.
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Old 01-22-2009, 06:48 PM   #9
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Stay away from paper. The point of constructing a bathroom to be moisture and mold resistant is to elminate the food source for mold. Paper is a food source.
I'm curious about panel joining as well. I've already sprung for Hardibacker and hung most of it. I've endeavored to leave some decent gaps between panels in case there is some stud shift. Maybe 1/8" at the biggest. I'm pretty sure that they say to completely fill and seal the gaps with thinset and that special mesh tape.

Doesn't this completely negate the benefit of leaving expansion gaps though? Thinset may have some vinyl in it but it is by no means very flexible. Wouldn't it be better to run a bead of silicone between the panels, and then after it dries, tape and float with thinset?
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:10 PM   #10
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I'm curious about panel joining as well. I've already sprung for Hardibacker and hung most of it. I've endeavored to leave some decent gaps between panels in case there is some stud shift. Maybe 1/8" at the biggest. I'm pretty sure that they say to completely fill and seal the gaps with thinset and that special mesh tape.

Doesn't this completely negate the benefit of leaving expansion gaps though? Thinset may have some vinyl in it but it is by no means very flexible. Wouldn't it be better to run a bead of silicone between the panels, and then after it dries, tape and float with thinset?
Not sure I understand what you're asking. You're saying "stud shift" which makes me think you're talking about a wall. If that's the case, you don't leave gaps in drywall seams, nor would you for cement board either.

If you're talking about a floor application, the idea of taping and "mudding" the seams is to make the floor a monolithic structure.

You want to silicone between plane changes (floor to wall), not on the same plane.

If your theory was true, floor tile would fail often as tile jobs almost always span multiple sheets of plywood or joists. Same with drywall. You'd see cracks often as a single 4 x 8 sheet of drywall spans multiple studs.
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Old 01-23-2009, 12:36 AM   #11
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Not sure I understand what you're asking. You're saying "stud shift" which makes me think you're talking about a wall. If that's the case, you don't leave gaps in drywall seams, nor would you for cement board either.

If you're talking about a floor application, the idea of taping and "mudding" the seams is to make the floor a monolithic structure.

You want to silicone between plane changes (floor to wall), not on the same plane.

If your theory was true, floor tile would fail often as tile jobs almost always span multiple sheets of plywood or joists. Same with drywall. You'd see cracks often as a single 4 x 8 sheet of drywall spans multiple studs.
Right I am doing walls and ceiling. The floor is slab. It's always been my understanding that you have to leave some room for expansion and room shift lest the panel end up under compression at some point. Are you saying that this isn't the case?
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Old 01-25-2009, 10:14 AM   #12
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-what are you thoughts about exhaust fan over the shower with a recessed light all built in together. have you guys seen this before? all i find is simple lights not recessed/fan
I actually came across one of these today. Made by Broan (probably nutone too)

http://www.broan.com/display/router....oductID=100116

and yes, it needs to be connect to a GFI circuit.
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Old 01-25-2009, 09:56 PM   #13
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this brings me to another question...

my parts: exhaust fan, vanity light, shower recessed trim light, 20 amp breaker, 12/2 wire, single pole switch (15 amp), gfci receptical (20 amp), single pole dual switch (2 toggles, 15 amp), new work single gane for outlet and double gang for switches

my set up: service panel up to gfci receptical connecting only one end of the gfci and pigtailing it. Pigtailed to double gang box with single swich and dual switch to provide power (total of 3 switches). In the double gange box: whites are pigtailed all together. ground is pigtailed all together. black from the power feed that goes from the outlet to the double gang switch box is pigtailed to give me 3 black wires to provide power to each switch. One black of those 3 pigatiled goes to the line screw single switch, vanity light black wire goes to other black connector on single switch. now single switch is done. On the double toggle switch both black from pigtailed goes to provide power to switch, then exhast fan black goes to hot screw and the shower light black wire goes to another.

is there any problem with having 20 amp breaker, 12/2 wire and 20 amp gfci and using a 15 amp switch?
Sorry if this sounds confusing, I have tried my best to explain it.
does this set up sound ok?
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Old 01-25-2009, 10:01 PM   #14
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You should post this question in the electrical forum. You'll get better replies there.
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Old 01-27-2009, 03:03 PM   #15
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is there any problem with having 20 amp breaker, 12/2 wire and 20 amp gfci and using a 15 amp switch?
Sorry if this sounds confusing, I have tried my best to explain it.
does this set up sound ok?
You can use a 15 amp switch yes, as long as the max load of everything that is on the switch doesn't exceed the capacity.

Just a suggestion, it sounds like you have three switched devices yes? There may be times when you might want to turn the light on, but not have the fan running, and conversely when you might want exhaust but no extra light. I can think of one case

Cooper and I think Leviton have a tidy little triple single pole switch assembly that would allow you to have everything wired independent. You'd probably want to run 12/3 up to the shower area though. I just installed a Cooper I got at Lowes a couple nights back.

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