Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Remodeling > Kitchen & Bath Remodeling

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 11-03-2011, 12:12 PM   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 17
Rewards Points: 10
Question

Bathroom Remodel Questions


Hi,

My wife and I are taking on the task of remodeling our bathroom. Our house was built in 1925 though it looks like the bathroom was refinished sometime in the 50s. So far we've removed the plaster (but left the lath) from two walls, pulled up a couple layers of stick on floor tiles and removed the old cast iron tub. Our goal is to do the work in phases as this is our only bathroom though thankfully we have both a walk in shower and a tub. I have several questions about some of the subsequent steps but guess I'll start with the two most pressing ones.

We want a watertight space. As part of that we are planning on using Ditra on the floor and either Greenboard with Kerdi or DensShield on the walls around the tub and shower. My first question is should the walls extend all the way down to the floor around the tub or should they stop just above the tub?

Since I have the existing lath on the walls do I need to use 1/2" or 1/4" wall material? The old plaster was only 1/4" so using half might cause problems with the existing door frame but I'd much rather be safe and have to plane a little off the door than have trouble with the walls later on.

Last question for this post, what if anything should be done to waterproof under the tub? We were thinking of putting a layer of Ditra down there with nothing over the top of it. Is that necessary? bad idea?

Thanks,
Bruce

brucelee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2011, 12:29 PM   #2
Tileguy
 
Bud Cline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,243
Rewards Points: 2,136
Default

Bathroom Remodel Questions


Quote:
We want a watertight space. As part of that we are planning on using Ditra on the floor and either Greenboard with Kerdi or DensShield on the walls around the tub and shower. My first question is should the walls extend all the way down to the floor around the tub or should they stop just above the tub?
Typically the "wallboard" in a tub surround stops at the top of the tub flange.

Quote:
Since I have the existing lath on the walls do I need to use 1/2" or 1/4" wall material? The old plaster was only 1/4" so using half might cause problems with the existing door frame but I'd much rather be safe and have to plane a little off the door than have trouble with the walls later on.
What are the "centers" of the wall studs spaced on? I would remove the lath because it is usually very irregular. Use 1/2" greeboard throughout and in the shower cover it with KERDI. I think the Denshield is the easier option and works just as well for the most part.

Quote:
Last question for this post, what if anything should be done to waterproof under the tub? We were thinking of putting a layer of Ditra down there with nothing over the top of it. Is that necessary? bad idea?
No reason to do that. The DITRA typically stops at the tub-base and that juncture is caulked and then caulked again on top of the tile.

Bud Cline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2011, 12:52 PM   #3
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 17
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Bathroom Remodel Questions


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
What are the "centers" of the wall studs spaced on? I would remove the lath because it is usually very irregular. Use 1/2" greeboard throughout and in the shower cover it with KERDI. I think the Denshield is the easier option and works just as well for the most part.
Thanks for the very fast reply. The stud centers look to be 16" though I haven't measured all of them. The walls have loose fill insalstion between the lath. Taking out the lath would be a big mess, plus the expense of having to put insulation back in, but I do agree the lath isn't very even. My plan had been to pull any lath that was really high but then just greenboard over the rest.
brucelee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2011, 01:01 PM   #4
Tileguy
 
Bud Cline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,243
Rewards Points: 2,136
Default

Bathroom Remodel Questions


Quote:
Thanks for the very fast reply. The stud centers look to be 16" though I haven't measured all of them. The walls have loose fill insalstion between the lath. Taking out the lath would be a big mess, plus the expense of having to put insulation back in, but I do agree the lath isn't very even. My plan had been to pull any lath that was really high but then just greenboard over the rest.
Well crap!!! Bad deal.
In that case what I have done in the past is to use a bunch of construction adhesive. I like PL brand. I would "gob" adhesive in twelve uniform locations on the back of the boards. Lay then up to the lath. And then push on the wallboard until it is dead against the high spots and screw the board at that location. This is done several times per board. It's hard to be uniform. Let the rest float and the gobs will take care of it. You have to pay attention to the seams of course. They should be screwed about every eight inches without drawing too many puckers in the board. It may then be necessary to fill the recesses that develop with joint compound to re-plane the boards surfaces.

It's not that hard to do. I've seen this method go good and I've seen it go really bad. It can all be fixed.
Bud Cline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2011, 01:15 PM   #5
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 17
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Bathroom Remodel Questions


Thanks again for the very fast reply. That doesn't sound too complicated and should be much more stable that what I was going to do on my own.
brucelee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2011, 01:25 PM   #6
Tileguy
 
Bud Cline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,243
Rewards Points: 2,136
Default

Bathroom Remodel Questions


Remodeling of older homes is always full of joy and celebration. Some times a guy just has to improvise to get the job done. The celebration comes at the bar late at night at the end of a long day installing drywall over old lath.
Bud Cline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-03-2011, 02:16 PM   #7
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 14,289
Rewards Points: 2,240
Default

Bathroom Remodel Questions


Do like we did. Gut the walls, get the shower/bath area back up so that you can use it (can take up to three days, depending on the size of the bath, and how many are doing the job (2 to do the gutting, one to lump stuff out to a dumpster or heavy duty bags)). If you can get the shower up and working by day three, then you can work on the rest.

It took us six weeks from start to finish to complete our bath. We used Densshield for the floor, which worked out great, due to it is a lot easier to work with, especially since we had left the tub in place. Do remember to go around the perimeter of the walls and seal with caulk, before placing baseboards, so that if water does get on the floor, it does not get between the tile and the sub.

First step is gut, fix any structural problems, rewire & plumbing, hvac, then put up walls, paint, then do the tile, install cabinets & toilet, then finish trim. Post pictures if you wish, especially if you have questions during the process.
__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?
gregzoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2011, 12:00 PM   #8
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 17
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Bathroom Remodel Questions


Thanks for the suggestions. After talking with a relative who is a contractor we have decided to just suck it up and pull the lath/insulation and replace it with either pink batting or foam board .

With that out of the way I did some looking and no one in my local area sells DensShield. One of the building suppliers does have Gold Bond e2XP Tile Backer which they say is an equivelent (or possibly better) product. Anyone have any experience with it?

As for the floor, while DensShield sounds like a good option it wouldn't work for me. Our floor is uneven and covered in small marble/porcelin tiles. Under that is about 3 inches of mortor/cement (not sure exactly which). Don't think I can screw anything into that without a lot of trouble. Planning on using SLC to even out the floor and DITRA on top of that. Though that part of the project is still a ways out.
brucelee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-08-2011, 03:04 PM   #9
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 14,289
Rewards Points: 2,240
Default

Bathroom Remodel Questions


You have to remove all material on the floor to get to wood sub-floor. Leaving anything on it, defeats the purpose of placing anything like densshield & tile, or linolium on the floor.
__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?
gregzoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2011, 08:30 AM   #10
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 17
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Bathroom Remodel Questions


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
You have to remove all material on the floor to get to wood sub-floor. Leaving anything on it, defeats the purpose of placing anything like densshield & tile, or linolium on the floor.
I appreciate the advice but that's not going to work in my case. Even if I was willing to jack hammer up my floor (which I'm not) it would leave me with literally a 3.5" crater that I would have to fill back in to get to floor level. So I'm going to have a cement base no matter what. Thus something that screws in won't make an acceptable backer in my case. This is why I like DITRA as it's waterproof but can be applied over cement. My understanding is as long as I use a portland cement self leveler I should be fine to install it on top of my existing foor.

As I have progressed through my demo work I found out why I had so much loose insulation in my walls. The wall studs adhere directly to the ceiling joists and run parrellel to them. Thus as insulation was added between the attick floor and the second level it just fell down the cracks. I know this isn't how modern walls are created but I'm sure it's stable as the house has been standing for 85+ years. I am wondering, should I put in some 2x4s running perpendicular to the joists at the top of the studs to plug up the 'holes'?
brucelee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2011, 09:12 AM   #11
Retired from the grind
 
gregzoll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Midwest - Central Illinois
Posts: 14,289
Rewards Points: 2,240
Default

Bathroom Remodel Questions


You have what is called Balloon Framing. And also, are you saying that the bath sits almost four inches lower than the rest of the house? That does not make any sense. A bathroom renovation means taking it down to the bones, not only going halfway with it. Can you post pictures.
__________________
Ren: Now listen, Cadet. I've got a job for you. See this button? Ren: Don't touch it! It's the History Eraser button, you fool! Stimpy: So what'll happen? Ren: That's just it. We don't know. Maybe something bad, maybe something good. I guess we'll never know, 'cause you're going to guard it. You won't touch it, will you?
gregzoll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2011, 09:51 AM   #12
Tileguy
 
Bud Cline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,243
Rewards Points: 2,136
Default

Bathroom Remodel Questions


Sounds like an old fashion "mud" floor in the bathroom. It is probably 3-4 inches thick and to remove it (if that's the case) would be an exercise in futility and a waste of time and money. If it were to be removed it would have to be replaced (as was) or additional new joists would have to be sistered to the old to raise the subfloor level.

The best bet is to leave it. Then use an actual Self Leveling Compound (not some concocted Portland floor leveler) to bring the existing back to a suitable surface at which time the floor could be tiled. Or, DITRA could be added on top of the SLC (for no good reason) in this case, except to spend more money.

Waterproofing bathroom floors is a waste of time if the door and toilet-flange and bathtub and any floor vents aren't also waterproofed.
__________________
XXX
Bud Cline is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2011, 09:58 AM   #13
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 17
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Bathroom Remodel Questions


Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
You have what is called Balloon Framing.
While I am in there, is there anything I should consider adding to it?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
And also, are you saying that the bath sits almost four inches lower than the rest of the house? That does not make any sense. A bathroom renovation means taking it down to the bones, not only going halfway with it. Can you post pictures.
Well currently it doesn't but the subfloor (I.E. wood base layer) is covered by 3 inches of concrete/motor. Best I can tell there are the joists that seperate the floors, then a ~1/2" layer of wood, then about 1.5" of concrete, then a thin metal layer, then about another 1.5" of concrete, then the orginal tile. I can see all the layers from where they broke through the floor to put in the plumbing (was hidden by the tub). I'll try and snap a picture of it tonight.
brucelee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2011, 10:10 AM   #14
Newbie
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 17
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Bathroom Remodel Questions


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
Sounds like an old fashion "mud" floor in the bathroom. It is probably 3-4 inches thick and to remove it (if that's the case) would be an exercise in futility and a waste of time and money. If it were to be removed it would have to be replaced (as was) or additional new joists would have to be sistered to the old to raise the subfloor level.
That sounds like what I have.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
The best bet is to leave it. Then use an actual Self Leveling Compound (not some concocted Portland floor leveler) to bring the existing back to a suitable surface at which time the floor could be tiled.
I meant SLC but I thought there were portland and gypsum based ones and just wanted to clarify that I would be using a portland cement based one. Trying to follow your guide.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
Or, DITRA could be added on top of the SLC (for no good reason) in this case, except to spend more money.

Waterproofing bathroom floors is a waste of time if the door and toilet-flange and bathtub and any floor vents aren't also waterproofed.
I didn't think the SLC provided water protection? Though I guess with that much mud underneath I might not have to worry about it. Also, DITRA installation instructions explain how to seal around the tub/doors/toilet. Didn't seem that complicated unless I missed something. I was thinking the DITRA would act as an uncoupling layer as well to help prevent cracks in the new tile/grout. Is that a wrong assumption?
brucelee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2011, 10:21 AM   #15
Tileguy
 
Bud Cline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 10,243
Rewards Points: 2,136
Default

Bathroom Remodel Questions


DITRA is an uncoupling membrane and works well but in this case your base is substantial. I would guess nothing is going anywhere. If it were me I would forgo the DITRA in this case, but that's just me.

The SLC doesn't really provide any "water protection" but water protection against what end?

You are correct there are also gypsum-based so-called self levelers, I wasn't thinking about those. They generally aren't available to homeowners doing small remodels as far as I know.

__________________
XXX
Bud Cline is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Bathroom Remodel - Resurfacing Plaster over Concrete Block itcanadian Remodeling 2 05-30-2011 10:10 AM
The Bathroom Remodel that just kept growing... gpsmith Kitchen & Bath Remodeling 1 05-28-2011 05:25 PM
Noob bathroom remodel jep Kitchen & Bath Remodeling 18 11-22-2009 10:56 AM
Bathroom remodel - need advice sparky472 Remodeling 12 10-22-2007 04:03 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.