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Old 01-06-2010, 01:05 PM   #46
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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house


The pressure switch controls the pump on/off.

If the hydrants tee off the line from the well, then the pressure tank delivers water to them when the pump is off. That means the water flow is reversed from the pressure tank back to the tees.

When the pressure falls to the cut in setting of the switch, the points close in the switch and the pump starts, that reversing the flow from the tees back to the pressure tank and the pump delivers water to the hydrants, tank and house.

You should look at the plumbing going into the pressure tank and see if there is a check valve. If there is your hydrants could not get water before let alone now because the check valve would have prevented water from flowing backwards to the tee in the line from the well.

There may be a check valve in the line to the hydrant or each hydrant if more that none water line feeding all three.

You've provided a lot of conversation but little about the plumbing. And you're making assumptions. Your 100 gal pressure tank does not contain 100 gallons of usable water. Hooking up the hose to back feed the hydrants may add a water that will freeze in them.

But if there is stones and dirt in the PEX you installed, maybe you could unblock it but, stones should not shut off all water flow like freezing would.

I do not believe that a 1" water line with flow through it would freeze before filling a couple troughs with a new line laid on the ground and then drained and the garden hose I suggested being drained and put away. Two people, one to fill the troughs and one to shut off the outside faucet and uncouple the hose and line and you walking back with the line raised on a shoulder to drain it should be able to do it without the water freezing in the hose or line before you're done.

And it seems that you don't have any other viable choices.

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Old 01-06-2010, 01:08 PM   #47
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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
The pressure switch controls the pump on/off.

If the hydrants tee off the line from the well, then the pressure tank delivers water to them when the pump is off. That means the water flow is reversed from the pressure tank back to the tees.

When the pressure falls to the cut in setting of the switch, the points close in the switch and the pump starts, that reversing the flow from the tees back to the pressure tank and the pump delivers water to the hydrants, tank and house.

You should look at the plumbing going into the pressure tank and see if there is a check valve. If there is your hydrants could not get water before let alone now because the check valve would have prevented water from flowing backwards to the tee in the line from the well.

There may be a check valve in the line to the hydrant or each hydrant if more that none water line feeding all three.

You've provided a lot of conversation but little about the plumbing. And you're making assumptions. Your 100 gal pressure tank does not contain 100 gallons of usable water. Hooking up the hose to back feed the hydrants may add a water that will freeze in them.

But if there is stones and dirt in the PEX you installed, maybe you could unblock it but, stones should not shut off all water flow like freezing would.

I do not believe that a 1" water line with flow through it would freeze before filling a couple troughs with a new line laid on the ground and then drained and the garden hose I suggested being drained and put away. Two people, one to fill the troughs and one to shut off the outside faucet and uncouple the hose and line and you walking back with the line raised on a shoulder to drain it should be able to do it without the water freezing in the hose or line before you're done.

And it seems that you don't have any other viable choices.
Good post Gary.
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Old 01-06-2010, 05:22 PM   #48
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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house


I had a hydrant set on the side between tank and well and when the pump is on your getting the full push of the pump if greater than the back feed from the tank.Once the press tank reaches limit cut off then your press tank backfeeds till pump kicks back in. gary be right and you could have a freeze at the beginnig of the hydrant supply and if they all branch from that feed no water. do what gary says for temp relief and good luck. might be a chk valve at start to hydrant i never had one letting pump do that but your well is so deep may be one there. can you research that?

Last edited by tpolk; 01-06-2010 at 05:25 PM.
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Old 01-06-2010, 10:20 PM   #49
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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house


A few points.
One it isn't how cold it is it's how long it's been cold that usually makes the difference.
Second if the first hydrant has frozen it may be blocking water to the rest.
Third it is not unusual for the drainage of a hydrant to fail over time when the drainage stone gets infiltrated with dirt.

You didn't mention if you have had a problem lifting the handle on any of the hydrants.
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Old 01-07-2010, 12:00 AM   #50
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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house


Quote:
Originally Posted by hayewe farm View Post
A few points.
One it isn't how cold it is it's how long it's been cold that usually makes the difference.
Second if the first hydrant has frozen it may be blocking water to the rest.
Third it is not unusual for the drainage of a hydrant to fail over time when the drainage stone gets infiltrated with dirt.

You didn't mention if you have had a problem lifting the handle on any of the hydrants.
The handles on ALL the hydrants work without issue. They open close smoothly, they just dont have any pressure at all.

the 7-10 before this happened it didnt get below 25 degress.

The part that baffles me the most is the way that the pressure died down slowly and that it is effecting ALL the hydrants, one on north side of supply, 2 on south side.
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Old 01-07-2010, 12:37 AM   #51
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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house


Ok all, I was doing some further Googling and found that it MIGHT be a bad "foot valve". I wasn't sure what this was so I did a define: foot valve in google and got this:

A type of check valve with a built-in strainer. Used at point of liquid intake to retain liquid in system, preventing loss of prime when liquid source is lower than pump.

I also found it called a "clack valve".

Could this be my issue in your opinions?

The other person said it could be bad and only allowing water in when the pump is ON and not when it is off.

I am sure that the hydrants are fed directly from the well water line to the house, before the house. I looked around the laundry room where the pressure tank is and there is 1 line coming in with 2 large awg wires that go to the pump voltage box and a small square D box attached to the water line before it enters the pressure tank (there are some elbows and drainage points inbetween that box and the pressure tank but all of them are AFTER the square D gray box).

So thus the hydrants have to be fed by the main water line.

Anyone know how well's are set up in this regard? For instance, we've been using this yard hydrant daily for 2 years, since it was installed, without issue, and never once did the pump turn on in the house. With that said the hydrants had to be fed by some sort of pressurized flow. Where would that have come from if not the sub. pump???? We checked this out when we installed the line to make sure it wasnt leaking. I turned it on after installing it and just let it run for 20 minutes, the pump int he house NEVER came on at all. (wifey jogged my memory earlier this evening when I was VENTING about this).

Does this shed any more light on the situation. Dayum theifs at the drilling & well company I swear.

PS - I know you all mostly think of a clogged line, by ice or debris, but it is not jiving for me. The way it lost pressure slowly and not instantly, and the fact the house still has water....

Check valve, foot valve... If it was the pitless adapter then I wouldnt get ANY water. Is the same true of a bad foot valve?
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Old 01-07-2010, 04:43 AM   #52
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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house


If the pump is a submersible, you dont have a foot valve but you do have a check valve on the pump. If the hydrants are piped off the main feed line to the house there can not be another check valve at the tank because it would keep water from backing out to the hydrants. If you are getting normal pressure at the house the pump must be ok. You have a frozen or blocked line to the hydrants.
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Old 01-07-2010, 07:13 AM   #53
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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house


unless you have a hidden pump then the pump to the house runs hydrants. period. sorry you didnt hear it running during initial test
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Old 01-07-2010, 07:45 AM   #54
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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house


Quote:
Originally Posted by mntnvew View Post
Ok all, I was doing some further Googling and found that it MIGHT be a bad "foot valve". I wasn't sure what this was so I did a define: foot valve in google and got this:

A type of check valve with a built-in strainer. Used at point of liquid intake to retain liquid in system, preventing loss of prime when liquid source is lower than pump.

I also found it called a "clack valve".

Could this be my issue in your opinions?

The other person said it could be bad and only allowing water in when the pump is ON and not when it is off.

I am sure that the hydrants are fed directly from the well water line to the house, before the house. I looked around the laundry room where the pressure tank is and there is 1 line coming in with 2 large awg wires that go to the pump voltage box and a small square D box attached to the water line before it enters the pressure tank (there are some elbows and drainage points inbetween that box and the pressure tank but all of them are AFTER the square D gray box).

So thus the hydrants have to be fed by the main water line.

Anyone know how well's are set up in this regard? For instance, we've been using this yard hydrant daily for 2 years, since it was installed, without issue, and never once did the pump turn on in the house. With that said the hydrants had to be fed by some sort of pressurized flow. Where would that have come from if not the sub. pump???? We checked this out when we installed the line to make sure it wasnt leaking. I turned it on after installing it and just let it run for 20 minutes, the pump int he house NEVER came on at all. (wifey jogged my memory earlier this evening when I was VENTING about this).

Does this shed any more light on the situation. Dayum theifs at the drilling & well company I swear.

PS - I know you all mostly think of a clogged line, by ice or debris, but it is not jiving for me. The way it lost pressure slowly and not instantly, and the fact the house still has water....

Check valve, foot valve... If it was the pitless adapter then I wouldnt get ANY water. Is the same true of a bad foot valve?
Thieves at the well company??? I read on this forum from about a year ago that YOU hooked the hydrants up!!!! A 23 GPM water well at the hydrant that is over 200 foot away is NOT a bad well. Stop your whining and start digging.

Last edited by user69544; 01-07-2010 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 01-07-2010, 08:00 AM   #55
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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house


that was helpful
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Old 01-07-2010, 10:23 AM   #56
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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house


If you still have water in the house the pump and associated equipment is working.

Is it possible you have an anti back flow preventer in the line to the hydrants that has failed?

Could you have another water source feeding the hydrants, a second well?

If the check valve were bad you would pump pressure up and the water would then bleed back into the well.
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Old 01-07-2010, 01:57 PM   #57
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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house


Quote:
Originally Posted by hayewe farm View Post
If you still have water in the house the pump and associated equipment is working.

Is it possible you have an anti back flow preventer in the line to the hydrants that has failed?

Could you have another water source feeding the hydrants, a second well?

If the check valve were bad you would pump pressure up and the water would then bleed back into the well.
That anti backflow preventer would be a single or dual check valve meaning that water can only flow one way through it - to the hydrants but not back toward the well or house, which is how it should have been plumbed.

He keeps saying the pump in the house; you're right, unless he has a hidden pump, and he wouldn't know that if it was hidden .... he has a submersible pump in the well. And unless he listens at the well, you usually can't hear a submersible pump run, especially in a 200' well a couple hundred feet from the house. So who knows what he's hearing...He doesn't want to hear about blockage or freeze up or digging. And going on with a lot of extra but useless info is allowing the problem to continue and if it is freeze up, to freeze more of the line until it breaks maybe or breaks fittings.

The lesson here is to not plumb any water line off the main between the well and the pressure tank; always plumb after the pressure tank regardless of the type of pump used or how much 'extra' pipe or trench it takes.

And add 100% more gravel under and around a frost free hydrant than you think you need; the deeper the better. Sand is not a good choice. I used at least 12" and a 5 gal bucket with 1/8" holes drilled every 3/4 to 1" all over the bottom and up the sides to the top of the bucket with the hydrant bottom about the middle of the bucket. I covered the bucket and gravel around it (like 3"-5") with heavy plastic like softener salt bags so dirt could never get in or wash down into the gravel. And I was down below the frost line plus. Yeah, I was scared of callbacks in this type situation but I never had a problem either.

It doesn't matter how long the hydrants were used over the last 2 yrs or 7 yrs etc. etc.. It is what it is now. And that's all that counts or a troubleshooter needs to hear.

A foot valve is a check valve that is used on jet pumps, not submersible pumps. That's because subs have the check valve in/on their OUTlet and jets it is on their INlet.
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Old 01-07-2010, 07:23 PM   #58
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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house


He also doesn't seem to understand that it is not how cold it is but how long it's been cold that determines the depth of the freeze. With all of the hydrants stopping at the same time would indicate that the water is stopped at or near the first hydrant or has stopped from a seperate supply.
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Old 01-07-2010, 08:03 PM   #59
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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
That anti backflow preventer would be a single or dual check valve meaning that water can only flow one way through it - to the hydrants but not back toward the well or house, which is how it should have been plumbed.

He keeps saying the pump in the house; you're right, unless he has a hidden pump, and he wouldn't know that if it was hidden .... he has a submersible pump in the well. And unless he listens at the well, you usually can't hear a submersible pump run, especially in a 200' well a couple hundred feet from the house. So who knows what he's hearing...He doesn't want to hear about blockage or freeze up or digging. And going on with a lot of extra but useless info is allowing the problem to continue and if it is freeze up, to freeze more of the line until it breaks maybe or breaks fittings.

The lesson here is to not plumb any water line off the main between the well and the pressure tank; always plumb after the pressure tank regardless of the type of pump used or how much 'extra' pipe or trench it takes.

And add 100% more gravel under and around a frost free hydrant than you think you need; the deeper the better. Sand is not a good choice. I used at least 12" and a 5 gal bucket with 1/8" holes drilled every 3/4 to 1" all over the bottom and up the sides to the top of the bucket with the hydrant bottom about the middle of the bucket. I covered the bucket and gravel around it (like 3"-5") with heavy plastic like softener salt bags so dirt could never get in or wash down into the gravel. And I was down below the frost line plus. Yeah, I was scared of callbacks in this type situation but I never had a problem either.

It doesn't matter how long the hydrants were used over the last 2 yrs or 7 yrs etc. etc.. It is what it is now. And that's all that counts or a troubleshooter needs to hear.

A foot valve is a check valve that is used on jet pumps, not submersible pumps. That's because subs have the check valve in/on their OUTlet and jets it is on their INlet.

Hurray..... We agree on something !

This has gone on long enough. Time to hire a back hoe and start digging
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Old 01-07-2010, 09:29 PM   #60
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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house


Yep, time to dig. His home owner's insurance will pay for this. He just has to play his card's right.


Last edited by user69544; 01-08-2010 at 04:46 PM.
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