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Well Water ? - No water at yard hydrants... but do have water in house

63K views 73 replies 12 participants last post by  4just1don 
#1 ·
Hi I live in rural Montana and obviously have well. It is 225' down and a sub. pump. I have 3 yard hydrants in my yard that were all working fine 2 nights ago.

I went out to water the horses last night and no water at all at yard hydrant. Opened it, nothing...

Went to other yard hydrants and they were all the same... no pressure, water, nothing...

Inside the house I have heard the pump come on and go off accordingly and have a very minimal decrease in pressure inside. Other then that nothing. (PS I could be wrong, my wife says NO change in water pressure inside, which I guess could be true since we have a pressure tank, not sure, seems like it is a bit less forceful when fully opened then usual to me...)

WTH could be wrong?

I have walked the water line for the yard hydrants and have found no sink holes, mud holes, etc... Nothing. Granted the ground is frozen now, I would assume I would still see some sort of sign of a major leak like this.

With that said... Why wouldn't i have ANY water pressure at the yard hydrant even with a leak?

Is my sub. pump going bad?

Where do I start? I cant afford to have a well pump guy out and it not be that and he charge me an arm and a leg for a visit. And vice versa for renting a back hoe and digging up my yard looking for a leak.

HELP, IDEAS NEEDED!!!!

:(
 
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#2 ·
Hi I live in rural Montana and obviously have well. It is 225' down and a sub. pump. I have 3 yard hydrants in my yard that were all working fine 2 nights ago.

I went out to water the horses last night and no water at all at yard hydrant. Opened it, nothing...

Went to other yard hydrants and they were all the same... no pressure, water, nothing...

Inside the house I have heard the pump come on and go off accordingly and have a very minimal decrease in pressure inside. Other then that nothing. (PS I could be wrong, my wife says NO change in water pressure inside, which I guess could be true since we have a pressure tank, not sure, seems like it is a bit less forceful when fully opened then usual to me...)

WTH could be wrong?

I have walked the water line for the yard hydrants and have found no sink holes, mud holes, etc... Nothing. Granted the ground is frozen now, I would assume I would still see some sort of sign of a major leak like this.

With that said... Why wouldn't i have ANY water pressure at the yard hydrant even with a leak?

Is my sub. pump going bad?

Where do I start? I cant afford to have a well pump guy out and it not be that and he charge me an arm and a leg for a visit. And vice versa for renting a back hoe and digging up my yard looking for a leak.

HELP, IDEAS NEEDED!!!!

:(
Is you pump building up and shutting off? Could the hydrants be frozen? I know some are "frost free' but, have head of them freezing.
 
#3 ·
Yes I believe the pump is shutting off. Normally it is rather loud for a minute or so and then shuts off.

No way they could all be frozen, one is inside my barn and out of the elements. The other two are outside, exposed but the one next to the horse trough has a plug in pipe warmer on it so it is not goign to freeze.

I am STUMPED!
 
#4 ·
Two things come to mind here: 1) You state that you have a "plug in pipe warmer" which I'm thinking is a heat tape. Have you checked to see if this heat tape/pipe warmer is actually working? AND--IF it is one of those with the little "tell-tale" light, don't go by the light, check to see if the tape is actually somewhat warm. 2) You also stated that the ground is frozen now. This leads me to believe you may have an "ice plug" somewhere in the line. This can happen where the pipe underground is closest to the surface and the dirt is wet. The wet dirt will actually carry the chill down lower than dry dirt and can cause what we call an "ice plug". Is there any connection which you might loosen to check for water flow going to the piping outside? I doubt you have pump/tank problems as you say you still have water in the home. Good Luck, David
 
#6 ·
Even if I had a "ice plug" it shouldnt stop the water from coming out one of the two spigots that are outside as they are on different ends of the supply line.

The water was working fine night before last and it hasnt been THAT cold for it to be a seriously "deep" freeze.

HELP!
 
#8 ·
I understand where you're coming from, it sounds logical in theory. In practical terms I can't fathom why it would have froze all of a sudden when nothing has changed; it isnt THAT cold out; most of the line has been in ground for 10+ years and the PEX line I added was done 2 years ago.

Would it freeze all of a sudden after 10 years of working fine? And if it froze why wouldnt it have froze the line coming into the house? I would assume that from the diagrams I have seen there is only 1 supply line coming out of the well and then it would be split after it comes out of there. That area is 8 feet below ground.

If it was busted wouldnt I see water/ some pressure at least when I turned it on? And if it was a giant leak, wouldnt I have a SINK HOLE after 48 hours of a non stop 23/gallon per minute well?

I understand that freezing makes sense logically but to me it just doesnt appear to be the culprit.

Anyone have any advice on exactly how common wells are set up as far as this is concerned? Is my previous assumption accurate?

HELP!
 
#12 ·
I understand where you're coming from, it sounds logical in theory. In practical terms I can't fathom why it would have froze all of a sudden when nothing has changed; it isnt THAT cold out; most of the line has been in ground for 10+ years and the PEX line I added was done 2 years ago.

Would it freeze all of a sudden after 10 years of working fine? And if it froze why wouldnt it have froze the line coming into the house? I would assume that from the diagrams I have seen there is only 1 supply line coming out of the well and then it would be split after it comes out of there. That area is 8 feet below ground.

If it was busted wouldnt I see water/ some pressure at least when I turned it on? And if it was a giant leak, wouldnt I have a SINK HOLE after 48 hours of a non stop 23/gallon per minute well?

I understand that freezing makes sense logically but to me it just doesnt appear to be the culprit.

Anyone have any advice on exactly how common wells are set up as far as this is concerned? Is my previous assumption accurate?

HELP!
Some place it is T-ed off. Maybe it is colder this year. Maybe you drove over this spot more this year, driving the frost down.
We will never know on the net. If you can't work on it, the next thing will be live with it until spring. BTW, broke and froze are not the same thing.
 
#10 ·
Furthermore, the last time I did use the yard hydrant in my barn, which is the farthest away from the well, the water pressure all of a sudden took a dump and was at about 50% flow. I didnt think anything of it and just figured my wife had turned on the dishwasher or sink or tub and that loss of pressure was normal when this occurred because of the distance to the barn and the home from the well, the well is 20 yards from the house and 300 feet to the barn.

The loss of pressure like that would lead me to believe the well pump, or is that wrong of me to assume the pump?

It is just weird to me that it would be an ice plug in a section of pipe 8 feet below ground and that has been in place 10+ years. I would take the blame and say it was my new PEX pipe I laid 300 feet of 2 years ago, but the yard hydrant 10 feet from the well doesnt have water either... UGH!
 
#14 ·
Furthermore, the last time I did use the yard hydrant in my barn, which is the farthest away from the well, the water pressure all of a sudden took a dump and was at about 50% flow. I didnt think anything of it and just figured my wife had turned on the dishwasher or sink or tub and that loss of pressure was normal when this occurred because of the distance to the barn and the home from the well, the well is 20 yards from the house and 300 feet to the barn.

The loss of pressure like that would lead me to believe the well pump, or is that wrong of me to assume the pump?

It is just weird to me that it would be an ice plug in a section of pipe 8 feet below ground and that has been in place 10+ years. I would take the blame and say it was my new PEX pipe I laid 300 feet of 2 years ago, but the yard hydrant 10 feet from the well doesnt have water either... UGH!
If you want to check the well/pump, take a short hose and a 5 gallon pail. At the sample tap on the pressure tank use a watch and see how much it is pumping. This will give you GPM. Then let the water run, as fast as it will, a half hour or so. Repeat the GPM test, ASAP. Then, this will tell you the system is doing.:thumbsup:
 
#11 ·
I understand that freezing makes sense logically but to me it just doesnt appear to be the culprit. I would assume that from the diagrams I have seen there is only 1 supply line coming out of the well and then it would be split after it comes out of there.
Logic,+ Common Sense says it's Frozen...

We don't know/ can't see how your waterlines are run...
Where is the branch split between the house,+ outbuildings/ hydrants,..??
Frost runs deeper in areas without snow cover...
How deep were the newest lines run at,..??
Are they under a driveway, or other non-snow covered areas,..??

If the line was Broken, the pump would run Continuously,... You said your's Isn't...
 
#13 ·
Logic,+ Common Sense says it's Frozen...

We don't know/ can't see how your waterlines are run...
Where is the branch split between the house,+ outbuildings/ hydrants,..??
Right outside the well housing (that black metal pipe that sticks out of the ground 2 feet)
Frost runs deeper in areas without snow cover...
How deep were the newest lines run at,..??
Are they under a driveway, or other non-snow covered areas,..??
There is only 1 section that is under snow about 10 feet, it is way out by the barn though (300 feet from well & 290 feet from first yard hydrant) The rest of the water line is not under snow pack.
We do drive over a section of the new PEX pipe I laid 2 years ago but it is pretty in frequent that we actually use it.

If the line was Broken, the pump would run Continuously,... You said your's Isn't...
This may be a lame question, but I assume that the pump running is when I hear that loud click and churn in my laundry room and that churn runs for a couple minutes and then a loud click and the churm stops. Is that accurate or is that only the pump to fill the pressure tank in my laundry room?

Lastly, I appreciate your patience with me :)
 
#16 ·
Unless you have frost free hydrants installed properly with sufficient drainage under them, my assumption (assumptions against any possibility should not be made) is that you have two (or 3) separately frozen hydrants.

You can have had a serious leak for months and not be able to see any evidence of it on the ground.

And PEX was a poor choice, 3/4" or 1" 160 or 200 psi rated PE pipe would have been much better. And if you really mean that the hydrants are black iron pipe instead og galvanized, they could be rusted shut. PEX is copper tubing size (CTS), the OD is maintained, and PE is iron pipe size (IPS), the ID is maintained (so you get more water).

So run a new PE line fed by a garden hose from the house on the ground to water the horses and install threaded sch 40 PVC unions to easily drain it after using it.
 
#20 ·
Unless you have frost free hydrants installed properly with sufficient drainage under them, my assumption (assumptions against any possibility should not be made) is that you have two (or 3) separately frozen hydrants.
I really TRIED to educate myself before I installed them and I put a crap load of 2-3 inch gravel, then 1-2 inch gravel, then 6-8 inches of sand underneath the hydrants and I got the 9 foot hydrants and only 2.5 feet is above ground, so they are WAY DOWN there.

You can have had a serious leak for months and not be able to see any evidence of it on the ground.
By serious leak do you mean a outright POURING of water @ 23 gallon a minute? That is what our pump puts out at the yard hydrants, tested last fall. Right now I open them and NOTHING happens, not a drip, sound, nothing.

And PEX was a poor choice, 3/4" or 1" 160 or 200 psi rated PE pipe would have been much better. And if you really mean that the hydrants are black iron pipe instead og galvanized, they could be rusted shut. PEX is copper tubing size (CTS), the OD is maintained, and PE is iron pipe size (IPS), the ID is maintained (so you get more water).
No I was referring to the actual well piping, not the yard hydrants, 2 of the three were new 2 years ago. the older one is old but works fine, until 2 nights ago.

So run a new PE line fed by a garden hose from the house on the ground to water the horses and install threaded sch 40 PVC unions to easily drain it after using it.
That works for non-sub zero days, but when we are subzero, the water hose freezes before the water can get out the other end to create a flow. It is 300-350 yards.


I am just baffled, the damn thing was working GREAT on a daily basis and then all of a sudden... It isnt even that cold!!!!
 
#31 ·
Hi I live in rural Montana and obviously have well. It is 225' down and a sub. pump. I have 3 yard hydrants in my yard that were all working fine 2 nights ago.

I went out to water the horses last night and no water at all at yard hydrant. Opened it, nothing...

Went to other yard hydrants and they were all the same... no pressure, water, nothing...

Inside the house I have heard the pump come on and go off accordingly and have a very minimal decrease in pressure inside. Other then that nothing. (PS I could be wrong, my wife says NO change in water pressure inside, which I guess could be true since we have a pressure tank, not sure, seems like it is a bit less forceful when fully opened then usual to me...)

WTH could be wrong?

I have walked the water line for the yard hydrants and have found no sink holes, mud holes, etc... Nothing. Granted the ground is frozen now, I would assume I would still see some sort of sign of a major leak like this.

With that said... Why wouldn't i have ANY water pressure at the yard hydrant even with a leak?

Is my sub. pump going bad?

Where do I start? I cant afford to have a well pump guy out and it not be that and he charge me an arm and a leg for a visit. And vice versa for renting a back hoe and digging up my yard looking for a leak.

HELP, IDEAS NEEDED!!!!

:(
The way I read it none are working. Am I missing something?
 
#34 ·
This is my assumption as I havent seen the area that the hydrants TEE from but it APPEARS that the hydrants are fed directly from the well and NOT from my homes pressure tank.

There is 1 line that comes into the house for water and it comes in and goes directly, through misc piping, to the pressure tank.

Is there any well set ups where as there is a different feeder for the non-house water?
 
#35 ·
Furthermore... My well pump is acting completely normal as far as cycling and such. I only hear noise from the pumps junction box when it is cycling ON.

If it was pumping all the time, I would hear that right? I mean the pumps junction box is LOUD when it is churning (on cycle) so if it was pumping 23 gallons a minute out the pump would be on all the time right?

I am baffled and do not want to start digging up my yard :(
 
#37 · (Edited)
I thought about this as I have a 75 gallon tank at my disposal but I have a few problems.

1. My house pressure tank is 100 gallon so it would almost fully drain it to fill the 75 gallon tank from my home garden spigot. Horse trough is 100 gallon and I have 2 of them to fill... I also need about 100 gallons in the barn for usage inside the barn. So that is a **** LOAD of water to haul

2. I live 20 miles from a town that I could find water, my neighbors are all gone for the winter and have their homes winterized, thus no water.


For the record, I would be hard up to NOT have a 4 way tee in the main line from the well to the house. Well to house is 2 of the 4 way and then I have yard hydrants that run off those on both sides, thus the other two of the 4 way.

With that said, why would only the two hydrants not be getting water but the main house is?????
 
#38 · (Edited)
Are there any "check valves" or something else that could break and cause this? Like I mentioned earlier, the pressure loss was not IMMEDIATE but a slow down over a course of a few minutes, and that was at the farthest away hydrant.

PS - I am going to get a hose tonight and cut male end and put a female on the cut end so I can hook the hose directly to the yard hydrant closest to the house and then turn on water and run to barn and open yard hydrant there and see if i get water....

If I dont I think I can safely assume I have a leak underground, would you all concur with me on that assumption?

If I do get water, well then, IDKWTFTD!
 
#40 ·
Additionally, I keep going back to the pump because of the way the water pressure slowly decreased the night I last used the water. I had been using it for a while that night on and off, and then the last time I used it the pressure was lower then usual but still flowing, flowing enough to fill 2 7 gallon humidifier water tanks.

The next day I went out and turned on the hyrdant and nothing at all came out.

If it was a leak, why would I have the pressure still to fill the tanks but the next night NO pressure?

The decrease of flow, while still maintaining some flow, wouldn't that be indicative of the pump crapping out?

IDK, I realize I am grasping at straws and am going to have to do "something" i dont want to have to do.

Anyone in Montana have a 3 PT backhoe I can borrow for a weekend? I have a 80HP tractor but no backhoe for it! If it isn't one thing it's another!
 
#44 ·
Can I "reset" the pump to force it to come on? I was thinking I could stand at the hydrant closest to the house and have it OPEN and have wife trip the pump to have it come on and see if that produced any sort of output from the yard hydrant.

Is that information even worth a grain of salt thought???

My local pump company wants 250 bucks to come out and test the well, OUCH!!!
 
#45 · (Edited)
Can I "reset" the pump to force it to come on? I was thinking I could stand at the hydrant closest to the house and have it OPEN and have wife trip the pump to have it come on and see if that produced any sort of output from the yard hydrant.

Is that information even worth a grain of salt thought???

My local pump company wants 250 bucks to come out and test the well, OUCH!!!
That is very high for a service call. How far would they have to come?? Why to do want to check the well??

Get prices on digging up the line. If you have house insurece, they will pay for it. Work with the contractor on the deducible.
 
#46 ·
The pressure switch controls the pump on/off.

If the hydrants tee off the line from the well, then the pressure tank delivers water to them when the pump is off. That means the water flow is reversed from the pressure tank back to the tees.

When the pressure falls to the cut in setting of the switch, the points close in the switch and the pump starts, that reversing the flow from the tees back to the pressure tank and the pump delivers water to the hydrants, tank and house.

You should look at the plumbing going into the pressure tank and see if there is a check valve. If there is your hydrants could not get water before let alone now because the check valve would have prevented water from flowing backwards to the tee in the line from the well.

There may be a check valve in the line to the hydrant or each hydrant if more that none water line feeding all three.

You've provided a lot of conversation but little about the plumbing. And you're making assumptions. Your 100 gal pressure tank does not contain 100 gallons of usable water. Hooking up the hose to back feed the hydrants may add a water that will freeze in them.

But if there is stones and dirt in the PEX you installed, maybe you could unblock it but, stones should not shut off all water flow like freezing would.

I do not believe that a 1" water line with flow through it would freeze before filling a couple troughs with a new line laid on the ground and then drained and the garden hose I suggested being drained and put away. Two people, one to fill the troughs and one to shut off the outside faucet and uncouple the hose and line and you walking back with the line raised on a shoulder to drain it should be able to do it without the water freezing in the hose or line before you're done.

And it seems that you don't have any other viable choices.
 
#47 ·
The pressure switch controls the pump on/off.

If the hydrants tee off the line from the well, then the pressure tank delivers water to them when the pump is off. That means the water flow is reversed from the pressure tank back to the tees.

When the pressure falls to the cut in setting of the switch, the points close in the switch and the pump starts, that reversing the flow from the tees back to the pressure tank and the pump delivers water to the hydrants, tank and house.

You should look at the plumbing going into the pressure tank and see if there is a check valve. If there is your hydrants could not get water before let alone now because the check valve would have prevented water from flowing backwards to the tee in the line from the well.

There may be a check valve in the line to the hydrant or each hydrant if more that none water line feeding all three.

You've provided a lot of conversation but little about the plumbing. And you're making assumptions. Your 100 gal pressure tank does not contain 100 gallons of usable water. Hooking up the hose to back feed the hydrants may add a water that will freeze in them.

But if there is stones and dirt in the PEX you installed, maybe you could unblock it but, stones should not shut off all water flow like freezing would.

I do not believe that a 1" water line with flow through it would freeze before filling a couple troughs with a new line laid on the ground and then drained and the garden hose I suggested being drained and put away. Two people, one to fill the troughs and one to shut off the outside faucet and uncouple the hose and line and you walking back with the line raised on a shoulder to drain it should be able to do it without the water freezing in the hose or line before you're done.

And it seems that you don't have any other viable choices.
Good post Gary.:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
#48 · (Edited)
I had a hydrant set on the side between tank and well and when the pump is on your getting the full push of the pump if greater than the back feed from the tank.Once the press tank reaches limit cut off then your press tank backfeeds till pump kicks back in. gary be right and you could have a freeze at the beginnig of the hydrant supply and if they all branch from that feed no water. do what gary says for temp relief and good luck. might be a chk valve at start to hydrant i never had one letting pump do that but your well is so deep may be one there. can you research that?
 
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