Water Heater Solutions To Get Hot Water In Timely Manner - Plumbing - DIY Home Improvement | DIYChatroom


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Plumbing

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-29-2012, 09:20 AM   #16
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: WV
Posts: 3,012
Rewards Points: 2,204
Default

Water heater solutions to get hot water in timely manner


I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the small point-of-use tankless heaters. The ones I'm familiar with are made by Eemax (http://www.eemaxinc.com/). I don't know if they have gas models.

Advertisement

md2lgyk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 09:46 AM   #17
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nashua, NH, USA
Posts: 6,974
Rewards Points: 2,044
Default

Water heater solutions to get hot water in timely manner


I never understood why "hot water" (from a water heater tank) is not good to drink considering that "cold water" sat in the water main or in a water cooler holding tank.

Have you ever observed the water company "flushing" water mains by opening hydrants one at a time? They do it only once a year if that, and quite a bit of "dirty" water comes out.

To get hot water fast with a minimum of adjusting of faucets you need to either install a third pipe with a recirculating pump, or install the water heater (or a water heater) close to where you use the hot water.
__________________
Forget super sized fries. The Washington Redskins could promote healthy eating with First Lady Obama by choosing a (red skinned) turnip for a mascot.
AllanJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 01:34 PM   #18
Member
 
Homerepairguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 828
Rewards Points: 594
Default

Water heater solutions to get hot water in timely manner


Quote:
Originally Posted by daluu View Post
One of the other reasons to decide between the two is also, not just the cost factor (or in addition to it), how hard is it to feed a return line back to the heater. May be harder w/o an adequate crawl space, basement, or attic. Then perhaps patch through walls and even route outside the home as external piping...
Agree. Opening up walls, etc. to install a return line is a major concern and will be expensive.

Quote:
As for water heater being filthy to drink, funny I haven't read any discussion addressing this:
Here's a bunch of youtube videos for your viewing enjoyment:

sediment in water heater


clay mud in old water heater


why flush water heater at 1 min, 20 seconds.


calcium and sediment accumulation in tank water heater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8Q1b...eature=related

hard water and scale in water heater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkAnB...eature=related

dirty water draining out of water heater at 1 min, 55 sec.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCNMT...eature=related

what's inside of your water heater
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESP0x...eature=related

dirty water draining out of water heater at 1 min, 55 sec.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCNMT...eature=related

Importance of water heater flushing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWA5D...eature=related

Quote:
what if you don't drink directly off the tap (whether recirc system to water line in place or not), but rather have a (lets say "good" for sake of arguement) water filter that the tap passes through before you drink or cook with it. In that case, the dirty water heater water then shouldn't be that bad if it's filtered. Granted one can say cold water is still cleaner, but the filter should mitigate some of the filth (chemicals, dirt, bacteria, lead).

Don't people use filters these days? Or most still go straight from tap?

Also, modern fridges, or good ones, allow you to patch a filter to the icemaker/water dispenser as well.
Installing filters would be one solution. Although we don't have a recirculation system, we don't drink water directly off the tap. I installed "smart water filters" under our kitchen sink and our refrigerator also has a water filter for the ice maker and water dispenser.

Best regards,
HRG
Homerepairguy is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 04:25 PM   #19
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 221
Rewards Points: 150
Default

Water heater solutions to get hot water in timely manner


I just spent a year looking at how to solve this problem in my house. The shower in our house is 46 feet from the hot water tank, 30 feet in an unheated basement. Here is a quick comparison of the different options:
Central on-demand Water Heater (gas)
Pros
Much cheaper to operate than 40 Gal gas hot water tank
Direct venting instead of flue
Energy saving can pay back costs
Cons
Does not solve delay receiving hot water
Need to upgrade gas service which is more expensive than upgrading electrical
Very Expensive (install $1000 plus gas line)
Central on-demand Water Heater (Electric)
Pros
Cheaper than 40 Gal gas hot water tank
No venting
Cons
Does not solve delay receiving hot water
Need to upgrade electrical service (fortunately the electric company paid for this after the snow storm in October)
Very Expensive (install $1000)
Point of Use on-demand Water Heater (gas)
Pros
Much cheaper to operate than 40 Gal gas hot water tank and central on-demand if limit to critical fixtures
Direct venting instead of flue
Cons
More expensive to set-up multiple point of use unit than one central unit
Must run gas pipes through house (Currently gas and flue in small area with short pipe lengths)
Luke warm water (same water volume with less BTU input = cooler output)
Expensive (install $1000 I donít do gas)
----------
Continuous Recirculating pump with thermostat and dedicated return line
Pros
Delivers hot water fastest
Does not waste water
No hot water in cold water line
Cons
Must have dedicated return line or cold line may contain excessive hot water
Expensive to run pump (electricity) and reheat returned water (gas)
Moderate ($600)
Timer based recirculating pump with thermostat and cold water return
Pros
Less electricity than continuous running
Not unnecessarily heating water when typically not being used
Small amount of hot water enters cold water line
Does not waste water
Cons
Contaminates from hot water tank enter cold water supply
Still uses power for pump (some pumps under sink, others near hot water tank)
Slow hot water recovery off hours
Moderate ($400)
On-demand recirculating pumps using cold water return (push a button to activate)
Pros
Less electricity than timer based pump
Does not waste water
Remotes available so donít have to be in bathroom while waiting for hot water.
Cons
Contaminates from hot water tank enter cold water supply
Still uses power for pump (some pumps under sink, others near hot water tank)
Still have to wait for hot water to arrive, but can be doing other things
Moderate ($400)
On-demand recirculating pumps using dedicated return (push a button to activate)
Pros
Less electricity than timer based pump
Does not waste water
Remotes available so donít have to be in bathroom while waiting for hot water.
No hot water in the cold water line (hint: place return pipe connection just before the hot water tank to eliminate contamination of the cold water.
Cons
Additional plumbing required
Still uses power for pump (some pumps under sink, others near hot water tank)
Still have to wait for hot water to arrive, but can be doing other things
Moderate ($600)
Passive recirculating using cold water return (sometimes called thermal cycle or gravity feed, hot water rises and cold water sinks)
Pros
No additional electricity/ no wiring
No additional plumbing
Cheapest ($200)
Cons
Contaminates from hot water tank enter cold water supply
Small amount of hot water enters cold water line
Fixture must be higher than the hot water tank (No traps in hot or cold water lines)
Does not work with on-demand water heaters
Passive recirculating using dedicated return
Pros
No additional electricity/ no wiring
Cheap ($300)
Cons
Additional plumbing required
Fixture must be higher than the hot water tank (No traps in hot or return lines)
Does not work with on-demand water heaters
----------
After all the analysis I went with a passive system (NIBCO Just Right 4075) with a dedicated return line. Why?
No additional power. I was not willing to trade convenience for electricity. There is some additional gas usage, but that has been offset with gains in efficiency elsewhere.
No need to run the additional circuit to either the basement or bathroom. I still ended up running the additional circuit to bring the bathroom up to code.
Since I was completely replacing the plumbing anyways and the hot water tank was in the basement, it was easy to add the return line and make sure the hot always flowed up and return always flowed down.
NIBCO is a trusted brand. Some of the other systems I thought were over hyping themselves.
NIBCO valve goes near the hot water tank, so the return line could connect to any fixture. Most systems have a valve or pump near the fixture, so you are limited to connecting to a sink where the valve is accessible per code. I really wanted the fast hot water for the shower which is 12 feet of pipe further away than the sink.
The cost including the NIBCO valve and return line was under $100, not including labor. I also spent an extra $ 30 to run, but not plumb, an additional return line under the sink, just in case. If the theory doesnít work in the real world, $130 was worth the experiment.
I suspect that the passive approach wonít work for you because it sounds like the water heater and the fixtures are on the same level. Passive works best when the water heater is in the basement and the fixtures are on the first or second floor. Also, if you have long runs of uninsulated pipes the heat loss may be so great that hot water will never reach the furthest fixture through normal thermal movement.

Last edited by goosebarry; 03-29-2012 at 04:34 PM. Reason: Added indentation
goosebarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 04:40 PM   #20
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Posts: 331
Rewards Points: 286
Default

Water heater solutions to get hot water in timely manner


Thanks goosebarry, would like to hear updates from you on how that works out overtime. Yea, the passive system probably won't work for me, single story home, on slab foundation. And any dedicated return line would have to go through walls and maybe outdoor piping as the heater is out in the back of the house, rerouted from garage.
daluu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2012, 01:58 AM   #21
JOATMON
 
ddawg16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: S. California
Posts: 7,649
Rewards Points: 2,612
Default

Water heater solutions to get hot water in timely manner


Sorry for digging this thread up....though it's not as old as some of the others I was searching....

I'm in the middle of a 2-story addition....part of the project involves moving my water heater from the front corner of the house to the back/side of the house...in real world terms...it means that hot water will be about 20' closer to the majority of items that use it...but it also means that the kitchen (front of the house) will now be about 30' (as the pipe fly's) from the water heater. Add to that the new upstairs bathroom....delay in getting hot water is going to be an issue......hence, I'm looking at hot water recirc systems.

I have ruled out the simpler system that uses the cold side as the return...when I want cold water...I want cold water....seems counter productive to have to waste water on the cold side while you wait for it to get cold. In other words, goose pretty much covered the issues....

So...it looks like I'll go with a pump (on a timer) with dedicated return line....

Hence...the question....does the return line need to be 1/2" or 3/4"? Any reason I can't use 1/4" or 3/8"? I realize that the pump would need to run a little longer to get the lines heated up....but, if I can use 1/4"...then it means I can use 1/4" tubing which comes in nice long rolls....which means less sweat connections....easy to route....etc.

Side note....everything is/will be insulated.
__________________
Even if you are on the right track, you will still get run over if you just sit there.

My 2-Story Addition Build in Progress Link ... My Garage Build Link and My Jeep Build Link
ddawg16 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2012, 09:39 PM   #22
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Posts: 331
Rewards Points: 286
Default

Water heater solutions to get hot water in timely manner


Since this thread was dug up, just wanted to provide an update:

I've been using the cold water line recirculation method. The recirc line is connected in hallway bathroom, kitchen and master bath are a bit farther away from it. So hall bath is about midpoint you can say, not the furthest endpoint. I also have a water dispenser line connected to a filter in the kitchen for drinking water.

I observe the following so far:

* no "warm" water from cold water line in kitchen, particularly the water dispenser.
* as I recall minimal "warm" water at cold water line in master bath sink
* warm water @ hall bath sink where recirc line installed
* kitchen and master bath don't instantly get hot water, but come fairly quick compared to ~10 minutes before the install. more faster @ hall bath.
* electricity (for recirc pump) and gas (for water heater) didn't skyrocket even though I have pump set for two 3-hr windows in a day. May have been higher than w/o that installation, but seems reasonable to me with bill under $50, but we'll see going forward a few months more.

So I guess warm water issue for the cold water line for recirc method is more dependent on where you install the recirc line. Unless needed, perhaps best not to put at further endpoint, but maybe the midpoint, or wherever you can best tolerate warm water on cold water line.
daluu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-07-2012, 09:44 PM   #23
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Posts: 331
Rewards Points: 286
Default

Water heater solutions to get hot water in timely manner


Quote:
Originally Posted by ddawg16 View Post
Hence...the question....does the return line need to be 1/2" or 3/4"? Any reason I can't use 1/4" or 3/8"? I realize that the pump would need to run a little longer to get the lines heated up....but, if I can use 1/4"...then it means I can use 1/4" tubing which comes in nice long rolls....which means less sweat connections....easy to route....etc.
Your thought certainly makes sense for simplicity and perhaps cost too. Waiting to hear from experts to chime in. But I think whatever issue you'd get would be with water flow/volume as you've now reduced the pipe size making system work harder to push water back via the recirc line. It could make things worse if you encounter water hammer or have high water pressure, also possible issues if it will be one long line of tubing w/o corner bends.

I wonder how long such tubing will hold up / last compared to copper pipes, etc.

Advertisement

daluu is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
water heater drip kdange1 Plumbing 6 10-29-2014 06:26 PM
low pressure after hot water heater replacement tuffluck Plumbing 4 06-07-2011 04:14 PM
Smelly brown water from water heater timthetoolman Plumbing 2 05-19-2011 10:32 AM
Water heater pressure relief valve confusion Flt_Simulation Plumbing 4 07-11-2009 11:02 AM
Water connections for new water heater diggerdave Plumbing 16 03-16-2009 11:36 AM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.
<--
-->