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kr bennett 11-22-2010 10:56 PM

wall mounted residential toilet
 
I need to install a bathroom in my basement. The roughed in drains provided are in horrible locations (in the cement floor). If I use a floor mount toilet, the 12 inches from back to drain will leave me with very limited access space to my furnace. Looking for solutions, I happened upon 'wall mounted' toilets. Not a lot of good things said about them, but looks like a possible way to gain an extra 12 inches of access between the wall behnd the toilet and my furnace. Note that there is no vent provided for the toilet or the roughed in sink and shower drains. I can only assume that the intention was to use 'direct venting' to the main stack which is about 5 feet from the sink drain and 4 feet from the toilet (& 3 feet from the shower).

Would this vent approach work for the wall mount toilet?

Any other ideas on how to mount a toilet with limited space in back?

Any reason to think direct venting wont work? I never heard of direct venting before i started googling as a result of seeing what I had to deal with. What is magical about 5 feet that lets you get away without a separate vent?
Thanks!

Plumber26 11-22-2010 11:38 PM

Would need to see pictures to give a good reply but, if your plumbing was roughed in, it is already vented or inspection would not have passed. As far as the furnace, why would the toilet impede access to the furnace?

kr bennett 11-23-2010 02:25 AM

1 Attachment(s)
sorry - it is late and i mixed up my problems:
I need to figure out how to peg the shower drain in the corner to maximize access to furnace.

Putting the toilet drain in the wall (wall mount or rear discharge) would allow me to add 12 inches to the shower size.

Any other ideas on how to lay out this bathroom given the attached sketch?

The only options i see are swapping the drains listed as sink/shower and being able to move the sink somewhat using drain pipe in a wall. Shower (either location) and toilet must go where the drain is. I dont know how far i can even move the sink without going beyond what i believe is a 5 foot max from the main stack (although i believe i can put a vent in for it - either through the walls back to the vents branching off of the main stack or with an under the counter auto vent valve.

Any ideas would be most appreciated.

Thanks.

moopey 11-23-2010 12:33 PM

keep in mind you'll need a carrier to mount the toilet. It goes in the wall (usually a large plumbing chase) and supports the toilet. JR smith offers light commercial and residential water closet supports. You should be able to obtain dimensions from the site to keep in mind when planning your layout.

http://www.jrsmith.com/products/clos...rial_index.htm

Ltnicks 11-23-2010 04:40 PM

I think you should get the blue prints from the builder or find out the plumber and ask him.

you need to know how the plumbing was installed, on a typicall basement rough the water closet would be 4", if it is a 3" floor drain then dont set a toilet over it.

you can also dump some water down each of the three drains you have sketched, then take a flashlight and see if there is any standing water, if you see water then odds are there is a trap under the concrete. the water closet and lav will not have a trap under the concrete, the shower will, but I am concerned it may be a condensate drain wich would also have a trap under the concrete but is perhaps tied into the plumbing system different from a shower.

we need to be sure of what we are playing with here

kr bennett 11-25-2010 01:00 AM

Thanks for replies. I would certainly like to know what I am dealing with but the house is 30 years old and built long before we got it. No idea who the plumber was and have no drawings. Just trying to figure out what they possibly had in mind when they laid out these pipes. I do know that the guy we bought it from was an HVAC guy and likely put the furnace in himself - probably with little concern for the pipe layout since he apparantly never intended to finish the basement.

I have run water into the pipes. They all take water from a garden hose easily. I wrapped plastic on them when i was done and now notice that the 3" hole 'breaths' (the plastic flaps) whereas the 2" holes don't - I can reasonably assume that this is because the 2" lines have traps. The other 2 toilets in the upstairs of the house both have 3" lines coming from them. Even the building inspector told me to run 3" for a third toilet I plan to put upstairs. So, I think I can safely assume the 3" line is intended for a toilet. Is there a chance that 3" is sufficient and your indication that i should not use it relative to different codes in different locations? Please elaborate on why you advise not using the 3" line. The only alternative i would have if you have a valid reason would be to cut conrete floor out and put in new lines. This would be an extreme makeover to say the least.

Assuming that this information leads to a concurrance that i can go ahead using the 3 inch line for the toilet, and, since nobody mentioned a problem with venting, assuming i am ok with the 'direct vent' use of the main stack (about 5' away), the best plan i can come up with is this:
Use a triangle toilet facing diagonally away from the shower, which will allow me to move the shower walls in a bit closer to give more shower space on one side and more furnace clearance on the other (leaving the shower to use the drain closest to the the main stack). I would then need to extend the sink farther away by putting a drain in the wall - but this would extend the actual length of pipe between the sink and the stack to over 5'. Could i rectify this by putting in a vent to the sink either in the wall through the roof or using an auto valve under the cabinet? note that since the trap for sink is already under the cement, I can only put a vent pipe between the sink and the trap - would this work??


Thanks for detailed insights and guidance.

kb

kr bennett 11-25-2010 01:26 AM

Moopey,
I looked at your link. Thanks. Looking at the residential mounts, i note that the 'discharge' pipe is somewhat elevated (horizontally) above the floor. Any chance i could modify it or find one available that might angle downward such that i could get move the toilet along the wall a few inches, increasing the distance from side of the toilet to the side wall (of course ultimately aligning with the permanent location of the drain in the cement floor)? Not sure how to better describe this than to trace it verbally - come out of back of toilet horzontally, 90 elbow pivoted to a 45 down toward the drain (vs going vertically down as depicted in link to jrsmith), then use a 45 to get it to the drain in the floor.

thanks,
kb

Fredzilla 11-25-2010 08:30 AM

Depending on the code, the plumber may have brought up 2" for the sink because it could be serving as a wet vent for the entire bathroom set up(although some codes don't allow 1.5" under ground, so that may also be the reason). You would then have to extend a vent(which could then be 1.5")from the sink and tie it in with a branch vent on the first floor(higher than the height of the flood level rim of the fixtures on the first floor). Sounds like a lot of work? The more practical option would be to use an air admittance valve(aka Studor vent) on the sink. However, not sure if those are legal by you.
Also, I wouldn't assume there is a trap under the floor. Check the 2" drains for traps. The sink shouldn't have one, and the shower should.

Jackofall1 12-04-2010 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fredzilla (Post 540319)
Depending on the code, the plumber may have brought up 2" for the sink because it could be serving as a wet vent for the entire bathroom set up(although some codes don't allow 1.5" under ground, so that may also be the reason). You would then have to extend a vent(which could then be 1.5")from the sink and tie it in with a branch vent on the first floor(higher than the height of the flood level rim of the fixtures on the first floor). Sounds like a lot of work? The more practical option would be to use an air admittance valve(aka Studor vent) on the sink. However, not sure if those are legal by you.
Also, I wouldn't assume there is a trap under the floor. Check the 2" drains for traps. The sink shouldn't have one, and the shower should.

Is it possible that the existing plumbing was intended for a 1/2 bath and the 2" line is actually the vent.

braindead 12-05-2010 06:52 PM

I think you have to be sure what those pipes connect to, you have to find out what one has a trap, or none, there's no way you will be able to hook up a wall mount toilet unless you move the pipe, the connection has to be in the wall.

It looks like the original was layed out with the toilet and lav. on the same wall and the tub or shower was layed out on the 2in near the c.o.

How much room do you have to the left of your drawing?, the measurments don't seem to add up correctly?

Fredzilla 12-05-2010 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jackofall1 (Post 545543)
Is it possible that the existing plumbing was intended for a 1/2 bath and the 2" line is actually the vent.

I would say that's highly doubtful. Unless there was some odd code requirement that each fixture had to be individually vented, that wouldn't make any sense. If it was a 1/2 bath, then you would only need to bring up one 2" pipe for the sink, which would then act not only as sink drainage piping, but also would be considered a wet vent for the toilet.


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