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Old 08-22-2009, 12:31 AM   #1
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wall/floor toilet installation/re-level


Very proud to have installed my first toilet (it's not my profession) but really appreciate far more now what a plumber has to deal with.
Kohler K-3554 rear flow (it sits on the floor, but water exits through a rear outlet into a pipe (that's where the wax seal goes... and works with no leaks BUT
I've noticed that some particles seem to come back into the bowl...
I checked the bowl with a level.... it seems that it tilts downward from where it connects onto the wall soil pipe.
Is it possible that after the "jet" flush, that "already flushed" water could come back into the bowl?
Is it necessary (if it's re-leveling) to "redo" the whole process with a new seal?
Or would it be feasible to gently lift the front of the toilet off of the plaster foundation, gently force it to a level position and add plaster underneath while it's supported during the drying process?
Something tells me the last idea is a bad idea (it would most likely compromise the seal right?).... that I need to undo everything: turn off water supply, flush, remove excess water, undo bolts, remove tank, gently lift toilet away and off of the plaster foundation, and redo all BUT this time making sure the bowl is level or even tilted a bit the other way.....
Any advice, comments will be much appreciated...
Thanks,
audioplumber

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Old 08-22-2009, 05:09 AM   #2
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wall/floor toilet installation/re-level


So you've got a floor mount rear outlet toilet. Congrats on the installation....alot of folks dont even know such an animal exists.

As far as leveling the toilet....alot depends on just how far out of level it is. If you only need to lift the front 1/8 or a 1/4" you could do this with a couple of toilet shims without very much fear of breaking the wax seal. If its any more than that then I'd replace the wax ring just to be safe. Not sure why you'd need to remove the tank, but I may not be picturing your particular toilet in my mind's eye.

Good luck

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Old 08-22-2009, 12:00 PM   #3
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wall/floor toilet installation/re-level


Indeed it is approx. 7/16ths of an inch... with a slight raise on the right facing the toilet (just under an 1/8th of an inch)... Therefore as you advise, I should redo the install... for me it's easier to guide and install the toilet (no helper) by just dealing with the bowl part first. After connecting I dump in a lot of buckets of water to check for leaks... HOWEVER, the part that I'd like to get advice on is the best way to remove the toilet without damaging it AND THEN the best way to do the plaster of paris wall...... First it sits on a plaster of paris foundation that I made....and as is the result of not insuring its front level; I am now faced with the back wash... So:
first is it carpet razor cutting just under the toilet and atop the plaster?
then gently rocking it out.... hopefully it will come away easily without damaging the vitreous china.
if that will works. THEN
after having properly prepared all places, upon re-mounting the bowl and wall connection, I would like to do one of the ideas below (and would also appreciate your advice here):
01_try to use as much dried plaster as possible and adding to it to achieve proper level then mount the toilet again when the plaster is set and almost dry. OR
02A_take away all plaster and mount the toilet using shims and or spacers that are strategically placed (perhaps one in the front and one on each side (the back is mounted inside the soil pipe) THEN
02B_tighten the bolts and check for level and no leaks (buckets of water into the bowl) then if everything is looking good; pack the non-shimmed areas under the bowl with plaster of paris leaving a space around the shims.... then when the plaster is dry, removing the shims and filling in the holes with more plaster...OR
03_do a dry check for level with the shims (no wax seal just a test) and THEN remove the toilet and actually incorporate the wooden shims into the plaster wall just enough where the outter part can be covered with plaster: let it start to solidify and then set the toilet with the seal into the wall and complete the install (tighten the bolts) and "bucket" test the toilet bowl water flow: then once no leaks are confirmed, continue with attaching the tank and finish... whew....

Thank you for your help... really appreciate this site and your participation... I cannot afford a professional right now (though my appreciation level for pro work has greatly increased!) and your advice and this site will make my installation not only work better than it does now, but yet work as if a professional did it; i.e. will work flawlessly...and properly...

Thanks in advance! Also want to thank George W. (local plumber) who was a big help in some of the standard operating techniques in accomplishing the initial install... though looks like I didn't exactly get the level correct...
Anyway, cool, glad to get your help.

Best Regards,
JD (audioplumber)
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Old 08-23-2009, 08:22 PM   #4
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wall/floor toilet installation/re-level



I went with way #2: After having completed the regimen for turning off the water supply, removing water, the tank, cutting through caulking and plaster base and gently rocking and removing the toilet:
02A_took away most of the plaster from underneath the toilet
any that was fastly held to the toilet I just smoothed out.
thoroughly cleaned the used wax with mineral spirits (both the toilet back outlet and the soil pipe.
placed the toilet in position without the wax to place shims unerneath the toilet in strategic locations to achieve "level"... one in the front and one on each side in the middle and one on each side at the rear.
After repeated adjustments I achieved level, and was ready to mount the toilet with the wax/ felt fiber seal...
Mounted the toilet while it was resting atop the shims only (no new plaster) tightened the bolts and checked for level and no leaks (buckets of water into the bowl) BINGO! everything looked good;
Nice this way because a water leak would be very evident! After about 10 bucket fulls: packed the entire underside of the bowl with plaster of paris (leaving the shims and plastering around them).... then as the plaster was drying, kept cleaning and "polishing" it (smoothing) but leaving the shims hidden behind the plaster of paris.
End result was beautiful... took me 4 to 6 hours to complete removing, cleaning, preparing and installation....
very good feeling to have accomplished this one

Thanks again JDC for the encouragement.... knowing that it was 7/16ths of an inch was over the 1/4, I decided to dive in and just do it.....

It worked! Bathtub next? hmmm...

Best Regards,
JD (audioplumber)
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Old 09-08-2011, 08:53 AM   #5
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wall/floor toilet installation/re-level


Audioplumber,

On other forums regarding this topic, the experts recommend using a neoprene seal instead of the traditional wax ring seal. The reason given is that over time the wax will sag resulting in potential seepage or leaks. The Zurn Company offers this neoprene seal for $21. The Saniseal Company offers a waxless seal for $9. I shot an email to Saniseal asking if their seal is compatible with rear outlet toilets. No reply yet.

My house was built in 1975; we bought it in 1999. The builder installed a rear outlet floor mount toilet in the upstairs bathroom. We often found moisture on the floor around the toilet which we attributed to the toilet tank sweating. Recently we noticed puddles not just wetness around the toilet. I removed the toilet and vinyl flooring and found the subfloor rotted from years of seepage. I've repaired the floor. When I reinstall the toilet I will use the neoprene seal or, if it's compatible, the waxless seal.
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