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-   -   To Vent or not to vent (http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/vent-not-vent-21963/)

bkeech 06-07-2008 06:28 PM

To Vent or not to vent
 
Ok, I am working on finishing my basement which includes a roughed in bathroom. The house's main sewage line is above the basement, so I believe this is the reason for a second kind of sump pump that is next to my water sump pump. This sump pump has a vent and a drain that dumps in to the sewage line. The vent pipe passes over my bathroom rough in. In all the books and things I have been reading, I cannot find an example of this kind of setup. The closest thing I have found is are Macerating toilet systems.

So is my basement rough in just a big macerating system?

The toilet rough in and the tub rough in cannot be vented, isnt that right?

That leaves the 3" pipe for the sink drain, do I need to add a vent stack to this and join it to the sewage sump vent?

Thanks for everyones help,
Bryan

Pic of my rough in:
http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/l...tBathRough.jpg

Termite 06-07-2008 07:15 PM

What you're talking about is a sewage ejector pump. Like you said, it is basically a sump pump for the purpose of elevating wastewater up to the main sewer's level. It has an integral vent, and that vent is important.

However, that vent won't serve to vent your fixtures that are attached to the ejector. Without proper venting, they won't drain very well.

Here's a link to a website that has some great diagrams and explanations of ejector systems...

http://www.pumpshop.us/sump-pump-installations.html

mstplumber 06-07-2008 08:15 PM

Bryan,
KC is right, your basement plumbing will be pumped up to your drainage piping with an ejector pump. If you haven't already, you should check to make sure that there is a pump installed in the receptacle that the pipes you see are connected to. Often the builder only pays for the "pump can" and not for the pump. If there isn't a pump you will need to install one. It is important that the discharge line from the pump has both a check valve and a shut off valve. The check valve should be below, or upstream, from the shut off valve. This both prevents the pump from cycling due to the waste in the discharge line draining back into the can when the pump shuts off and it also makes servicing the pump a little easier.

Your ejector pump vent should go up into the floor system above and eventually either connect to your sanitary vent system or go out through the roof separately.

The plumbing under the slab for your bathroom is probably wet vented, which means that both your toilet and tub will be vented through the 3" stack for the lavatory. Here you have a choice, you can either install a Studor Vent (Air Admittance Valve) or you can continue an 1 1/2" vent from the top of the sanitary tee that you install to drain the lavatory and connect to the Pump Can vent.

I know many people think Studor Vents are sort of "mickey mouse" but they work. My company has installed literally tens of thousands of them over the last 10 years with very, very few failures. If they fail they either stink or the drain doesn't drain well. Just replace them and the problem is solved. They do, however, need to be accessible and that means they can't be sheetrocked over.

The other option is to connect to the pump can vent. In my humble opinion, that is the best option. That is allowed by the International Plumbing Code and I don't know of a reason why not to. The Code does state that Pneumatic Ejectors must be vented separately through the roof and for many years lots of municipalities have interpreted that to mean all Ejector Pumps. The difference is that a pneumatic ejector uses air pressure to operate and I have never seen one installed in a home in my entire 22 year plumbing career. I looked on up online and it looked like it belonged on a WWII battleship.

Bearing in mind that I am in Georgia and also that I have learned a lot from many of the kctermite's posts, I still wouldn't hesitate to connect to the pump can vent as long as it goes into the floor system and you are sure it is a vent.

By the way, the square hole in the floor looks like your tub drain. It should have a p-trap installed under the concrete but it's always a good idea to check that.

Termite 06-07-2008 08:44 PM

I couldn't agree more! I should have been clear...No reason not to tie the ejector's vent and the fixtures' vent(s) into the same vent pipe. No need to have two dedicated vents, as long as everything's vented. Just be sure to understand that the vent that comes out of the ejector won't vent the fixtures. I've never seen a pneumatic ejector either, in several years as an inspector.

bkeech 06-07-2008 09:43 PM

Thanks
 
Thanks for this great info. I checked and there is an electrical cord coming out of the basin, so I might be in luck there.

Yeah, I am not sure why this neighborhood's sewar lines are not lower then the basements. I am in central, il and have only lived here for a year and a half. Came from Arizona, where almost no one has basements.

Bryan

mstplumber 06-07-2008 10:41 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Just for kicks, here's a picture I found of a pneumatic sewage ejector:

Alan 06-08-2008 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mstplumber (Post 128645)
Your ejector pump vent should go up into the floor system above and eventually either connect to your sanitary vent system or go out through the roof separately.

Insert "Check local code"

Here, we are not allowed to intersect any other vent with a sewage ejector vent. :whistling2:

Alan 06-08-2008 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkeech (Post 128655)
Thanks for this great info. I checked and there is an electrical cord coming out of the basin, so I might be in luck there.

There should actually be three of them, I think........ You should have the pump power, which is probably a 110 in your situation (can be 220 sometimes), a float switch for the pump, also 110 (unless your pump is 220, then the switch needs to be 220 also), and a flood alarm, 110.

bkeech 06-08-2008 05:46 PM

hmm, Thanks Alan. I only have two outlets there and I think they are both 110, as I have used them temporarially for a drill or something else. Also I think the sewage ejector is operational because there is a floor drain for the water heater. I was thinking of draining the WH a bit to see the sewage ejector kick on.

What do you guys thing?

Alan,
Is it maybe that I have to add those extra things because I am finishing the basement?



Thanks,
Bryan

Alan 06-08-2008 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkeech (Post 128791)
hmm, Thanks Alan. I only have two outlets there and I think they are both 110, as I have used them temporarially for a drill or something else. Also I think the sewage ejector is operational because there is a floor drain for the water heater. I was thinking of draining the WH a bit to see the sewage ejector kick on.

What do you guys thing?

Alan,
Is it maybe that I have to add those extra things because I am finishing the basement?



Thanks,
Bryan

Is it difficult to get to the basin ? Has it been used at all? If not, i'd just as soon open the lid and see whats in there. I suppose it's possible that the wires for the switch and alarm just fell into the tank....

2 outlets are fine, usually one of the tails (i think..the switch) has a male plug end with a female side right on the back so that your pump will plug in through it.

I'm not sure why you'd have to put the switch or alarm on yourself.... a lot of people just do things differently.

Have you plugged the pump in yet at all?

Termite 06-09-2008 09:54 AM

The ejectors I see here typically have only one run of NM wire running to them, and they're normally hard wired.

Alan 06-09-2008 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thekctermite (Post 128910)
The ejectors I see here typically have only one run of NM wire running to them, and they're normally hard wired.

Interesting. Do they have their own floats and alarms already wired to them out of the box? :huh::huh:

I've never seen one like that.

Termite 06-09-2008 10:57 AM

I couldn't honestly say. They appear to be a self-contained unit, but I have never taken one apart to see the inner-workings. I'm confident that the float is integrated inside the unit, but I don't know if it is wired on site or at the factory. Next time I see one I will check it out for sure.

mstplumber 06-09-2008 02:22 PM

There are definitely several different configurations of pump on the market. I have even used one with no float switch at all. This particular version used some type of pressure switch that was triggered somehow by a small tube attached to the power supply cord. I really never figured that one out, but it worked.

Basically, Bkeech, run some water in the floor drain and see if yours works. If so, you may want to pull it, get the numbers off of it and check to make sure it is a true sewage ejector pump and not just a sump pump. The alarm Alan mentioned is definitely a good idea but it isn't required in all places.

bkeech 06-09-2008 08:15 PM

Thanks everyone. I will check it, as I think thats a good point that it may be a normal sump pump. I'll let you know.

Bryan


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