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-   -   Vanity shelf interfering with trap install (http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/vanity-shelf-interfering-trap-install-171809/)

jkk 02-12-2013 08:45 PM

Vanity shelf interfering with trap install
 
1 Attachment(s)
With a new vanity 'installed', there is only ~2" from the shelf to the bottom of the drainpipe coming out of the wall. Not enough room to fit a standard trap installation.

It seems like I need to glue in some pieces that slope downwards from the trap to the wall pipe. Is that feasible?

Attachment 65597

joecaption 02-12-2013 08:50 PM

I've had to cut a rectanguler shape hole in the shelve.

TheEplumber 02-12-2013 09:12 PM

Your trap outlet needs to be at the level as the pipe in the wall- so as Joe said, you need to cut a hole. Also, you get about 3" of swing in a trap, so you need to move the sink over a tad or put a 45 on the drain arm

Alan 02-12-2013 09:44 PM

Looks like you might as well open the wall up and adjust the elevation and the horizontal arrangement of the drain. That's what I would do. I hate cutting into cabinets. :(

jkk 02-12-2013 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan
Looks like you might as well open the wall up and adjust the elevation and the horizontal arrangement of the drain. That's what I would do. I hate cutting into cabinets. :(

Well there's another sink on the other side of the wall, so changing the drain in the wall is considerable work. What is wrong with using 45s to slope down from the trap to wall?

Alan 02-12-2013 10:10 PM

It puts your vent below the trap arm which causes siphoning of the trap.

cleveman 02-13-2013 10:50 PM

I'm confused about this. Can you have a vent above the trap?

I mean, what is the difference between coming off the trap, dropping down a bit, then going into the wall (where it surely drops immediately), and going directly into the wall (where it surely drops immediately)?

How does siphoning occur unless the vent is before the trap?

I've always been told you want the vent as close to the trap as possible, and there are some permitted maximums. Obviously, a vent 30' from a trap isn't as good as one 3" away.

So if the vent is 6" below the trap, and the water wants to pull on the trap water, the vent won't stop this suction?

Alan 02-13-2013 11:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleveman (Post 1116799)
So if the vent is 6" below the trap, and the water wants to pull on the trap water, the vent won't stop this suction?

No, because water seeks it's own level. Picture a piece of pipe on grade.


Now picture water in the pipe. The water is level in the pipe because again, water seeks it's own level.

As the pipe gets longer, soon you see that on the downhill end of the pipe, the water level is reaching the top of the inside of the pipe. Once this happens, the air is not allowed into the horizontal pipe anymore. It pulls air through by siphoning the trap.

Same thing happens when the trap arm is offset vertically. Someone here has posted a diagram here before of this scenario, and I have a book that shows it. Hopefully you understand what i'm saying.

Alan 02-13-2013 11:04 PM

Here's a diagram

http://www.billbblog.com/Content/ima...fixtureArm.jpg

cleveman 02-13-2013 11:20 PM

OK, I get it.

You must be worried about situations where the vent is out of code. In my experience, a lav sink drains into the wall, where it meets a tee. The tee is the vent, so the trap is about a foot from the vent.

I was also taught to drop a toilet into a tee or elbow with a 2" coming off it for the vent.

And typically the bathtub is about 30" from the toilet.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification.

Alan 02-14-2013 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleveman (Post 1116816)
You must be worried about situations where the vent is out of code.

No, like I said if the vent is below the trap arm for instance how the OP is talking about offsetting his trap arm UPWARDS to clear a shelf, the trap can siphon. It really has nothing to do with the vent.

jkk 02-14-2013 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan

Per the diagram, it is allowed to have some minimal pitch. Is that correct?

Alan 02-14-2013 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jkk (Post 1116978)
Per the diagram, it is allowed to have some minimal pitch. Is that correct?

The diagram is sketched as 1/4" per foot slope. That is why your trap arm maximum length increases with pipe size. If you slope your pipe steeper, the theory is that your maximum length should decrease. Most of the time under vanities we don't have this issue with length however.

jkk 02-14-2013 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alan

The diagram is sketched as 1/4" per foot slope. That is why your trap arm maximum length increases with pipe size. If you slope your pipe steeper, the theory is that your maximum length should decrease. Most of the time under vanities we don't have this issue with length however.

Yes, so for a 1' length with 1.5" pipe, I can have 1.5" of drop. Right?

Alan 02-14-2013 09:46 PM

In theory, yes, but that is too steep to achieve over a 1 foot section without using fittings.


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