DIY Home Improvement Forum banner

Are tankless water heaters a good choice for the midwest

10K views 27 replies 7 participants last post by  clasact 
#1 ·
I live in Chicago, IL and have heard that tankless water heaters aren't a good choice in this region. How true is this? I know heat pumps dont do so well in this area but is that also true for tankless water heaters?
 
#5 ·
jerry probably hit the nail on the head about groundwater.. I'm assuming that beacuse you're asking you're considering a tankless HW heater? And b/c I'm bored, I wrote all this.

The tank vs. tankless is an old debate.. There's _tons_ of discussion and information on the web already, so I'm loathe to jump into it here. If you Google "tankless vs. tank water heater" you'll probably get a lot to read and wind up more confused than before. (I've done it).

The fact is that there are a few main things to consider:

- Your water usage.

- The efficiency/age of your current HW heater.

- The cost of installing the tankless system vs. how much you'll save.

For example, if you had a vacation home, or you just didn't use much hot water, then tankless would probably work well for you. Heavy hot water users will generally not get that much more efficiency from a tankless.

If your current HW heater is aging and probably not too efficient, you'd see a big difference going tankless. Then again, you might see a big difference just getting a new tank. :)

Finally, cost-wise, a tankless system is more expensive (both for the unit and for the installation -- it's not a "drop in" replacement for a tank unit), so if you are a heavy hot water user, it may take more years for the tankless unit to pay for itself than it will last. Though if you need a new HW heater anyway, you'd be spending some of that money no matter what.

Sooooo, I guess my point is that for Chicago or anywhere else, it really depends on a bunch of factors how well it will work for you. If you definately want to go tankless, modern units deal better with cold groundwater temps than older ones -- depending on the model, they can monitor incoming and outgoing water temp and "throttle" the burner (or electric element) accordingly.

BTW, regarding that tankless isn't a "drop in" replacement for a tank: You'd probably need better venting, maybe a bigger gas line to the unit than to your current HW heater, almost certainly the gas line would have to be moved a few feet (if gas), maybe a higher current circuit (if electric), and water pipes would have to be moved.

I'm not saying that to dissuade you, but if you're not planning on doing that stuff yourself, it can really add to the cost. More so for gas than electric, though it depends on what you have in place now.
 
#6 ·
jerry probably hit the nail on the head about groundwater.. I'm assuming that beacuse you're asking you're considering a tankless HW heater? And b/c I'm bored, I wrote all this.

The tank vs. tankless is an old debate.. There's _tons_ of discussion and information on the web already, so I'm loathe to jump into it here. If you Google "tankless vs. tank water heater" you'll probably get a lot to read and wind up more confused than before. (I've done it).

The fact is that there are a few main things to consider:

- Your water usage.

- The efficiency/age of your current HW heater.

- The cost of installing the tankless system vs. how much you'll save.

For example, if you had a vacation home, or you just didn't use much hot water, then tankless would probably work well for you. Heavy hot water users will generally not get that much more efficiency from a tankless.

If your current HW heater is aging and probably not too efficient, you'd see a big difference going tankless. Then again, you might see a big difference just getting a new tank. :)

Finally, cost-wise, a tankless system is more expensive (both for the unit and for the installation -- it's not a "drop in" replacement for a tank unit), so if you are a heavy hot water user, it may take more years for the tankless unit to pay for itself than it will last. Though if you need a new HW heater anyway, you'd be spending some of that money no matter what.

Sooooo, I guess my point is that for Chicago or anywhere else, it really depends on a bunch of factors how well it will work for you. If you definately want to go tankless, modern units deal better with cold groundwater temps than older ones -- depending on the model, they can monitor incoming and outgoing water temp and "throttle" the burner (or electric element) accordingly.

BTW, regarding that tankless isn't a "drop in" replacement for a tank: You'd probably need better venting, maybe a bigger gas line to the unit than to your current HW heater, almost certainly the gas line would have to be moved a few feet (if gas), maybe a higher current circuit (if electric), and water pipes would have to be moved.

I'm not saying that to dissuade you, but if you're not planning on doing that stuff yourself, it can really add to the cost. More so for gas than electric, though it depends on what you have in place now.
What he said. :thumbsup: Tankless installations are not for the average DIYer, whereas conventional water heaters are more DIY friendly.
 
#9 ·
My point is that the water temperature is consistent and is not a reason to not install a tankless water heater.
Where I am in NY cold water temp varies quite a bit. Water from the tap is ice cold in winter, and coolish in summer.. I know that's not the most scientific assessment, but it's enough of a difference to be noticeable.

But agreed, it's not a reason to eschew a tankless because modern units can keep up...
 
#11 ·
It would be interesting to see what the water temperature is coming out the tap water year round.

I know I can cool my vacation home with ground water at 55 degrees after months of 90+ weather and no rain. It is only buried about 6 feet down.
 
#12 ·
It would be interesting to see what the water temperature is coming out the tap water year round.

I know I can cool my vacation home with ground water at 55 degrees after months of 90+ weather and no rain. It is only buried about 6 feet down.
I'll have to try to remember to check in January. 6 feet is nice and deep. I bet most around here aren't that deep.
 
#13 · (Edited)
Me said:
Where I am in NY cold water temp varies quite a bit. Water from the tap is ice cold in winter, and coolish in summer.. I know that's not the most scientific assessment, but it's enough of a difference to be noticeable.
Woops.. What I said is valid, but it's not a good counter-argument to the ground-temperature issue. Just remembered that all of our water comes from wells and then up into water towers. Then it goes underground.. So it's probable that the air temp has a lot to do with our water temp. Those water towers must be insulated, but 20deg in the winter and 100deg must make a hell of a difference.

NYC's water goes through open resivoirs between source and delivery. Must be decent temp changes there too.

I guess the lesson to be learned is that water delivery factors in as well as ground temp. So back to the OPs question, that could be why tankless WHs don't work as efficiently in Chicago. Not sure how you guys get your water though.

Marvin Gardens said:
I know I can cool my vacation home with ground water at 55 degrees after months of 90+ weather and no rain. It is only buried about 6 feet down.
I'd love to use geothermal.. Off topic question, but how difficult was it to install the loops? How many sq. ft. of your yard did you dig up? (Edit: I'm assuming you're using horizontal ground loops here.. Let me know if that's not the case.)
 
#14 ·
Woops.. What I said is valid, but it's not a good counter-argument to the ground-temperature issue. Just remembered that all of our water comes from wells and then up into water towers. Then it goes underground.. So it's probable that the air temp has a lot to do with our water temp. Those water towers must be insulated, but 20deg in the winter and 100deg must make a hell of a difference.

NYC's water goes through open resivoirs between source and delivery. Must be decent temp changes there too.

I guess the lesson to be learned is that water delivery factors in as well as ground temp. So back to the OPs question, that could be why tankless WHs don't work as efficiently in Chicago. Not sure how you guys get your water though.



I'd love to use geothermal.. Off topic question, but how difficult was it to install the loops? How many sq. ft. of your yard did you dig up? (Edit: I'm assuming you're using horizontal ground loops here.. Let me know if that's not the case.)
The thing about water is that it all goes underground at some point. My guess is that it spends enough time there to assume that temperature whatever that might be.

As for my ground loop I have 2 setups that I have put in. One at my rental near my vacation home and another at my vacation home.

For one I used 300 feet of 1/2" pex in 2 trenches at 6 feet. Each trench went out about 60 feet and I put an outgoing and incoming in each trench. So it was 60 feet out and 60 feet back and then over to the second trench which about 10 feet away and out 60 and back and then into my system.

The rental used 3/8" pex and I put in 1000 ft. It was in a smaller yard and I put it in 20 foot trenches, 4 I think it was, and went back and forth till I started to run out of pipe.

The advantage of 3/8 is there is more surface area per volume of water to cool it faster. If I had it to do over again I would use 3/8" at my vacation home also.

The disadvantage is that 3/8" will kink easier and needs to me handled carefully.

Does it work. Oh yea and it is real cheap once it is installed. I just put in a thermostat and a Taco pump and when it gets too hot the pump goes on as does the fan blowing the air through the A coil I pulled out of a furnace we were replacing.
 
#15 ·
The thing about water is that it all goes underground at some point. My guess is that it spends enough time there to assume that temperature whatever that might be.
True, but if the ground is a steady 55, then it must be changing temp somewhere else, no?

Does it work. Oh yea and it is real cheap once it is installed. I just put in a thermostat and a Taco pump and when it gets too hot the pump goes on as does the fan blowing the air through the A coil I pulled out of a furnace we were replacing.
No compressor? Is the coil relatively cold enough to pull humidity out of the air?

Good to know.. And yeah, I can imagine how cheap that is if it's just a pump and blower.

Sadly I can't just go digging up my yard.. I'd need a permit, and therefore the work would all have to be done by someone licensed which makes the cost absurd.. etc. I'd do it anyway, but someone's bound to notice. :) You do all the digging yourself? Bobcat? (Can't do that by hand..)
 
#16 ·
No compressor? Is the coil relatively cold enough to pull humidity out of the air?

Good to know.. And yeah, I can imagine how cheap that is if it's just a pump and blower.

Sadly I can't just go digging up my yard.. I'd need a permit, and therefore the work would all have to be done by someone licensed which makes the cost absurd.. etc. I'd do it anyway, but someone's bound to notice. :) You do all the digging yourself? Bobcat? (Can't do that by hand..)
I have a backhoe. It is old but it works and digs holes just fine.

We don't have a humidity problem in the desert. It is below 40% most of the time.

A permit to dig a hole????

What socialist city/state do you live in?

Just an FYI, you can use a large motorized post hole digger, the kind on small wheels you can tow behind a car. Dig the holes as deep as you can and then coil the pex in the bottom. Use sand to fill in voids and then refill the hole.

If anyone asks you are just planting a few trees and changed your mind....
 
#17 ·
A permit to dig a hole????

What socialist city/state do you live in?
Ugh, don't get me started.. Town Of Oyster Bay, NY sets the rules. Get this: technically I need a permit to do any electrical work in my house. This includes changing a light switch or receptacle. Plumbing is not so bad, you can change fixtures, but anything else requires a permit. And they are DIY unfriendly: Plumbing permits need to be signed by a master plumber (and since they're responsible for the work, good luck getting them to sign off and let the homeowner do the work). Homeowners can do "simple electrical work", but they have to pass a written test given by the town, and submit full drawings of the intended work, and sit down with some kind of board to discuss it. You have to go through all that every time you want to do any work (well, I think the test is once every 5 years or so). Oh, and the most minor of permits cost ~$200.

Phew.

And I don't know exactly where digging up one's backyard falls in, but I'm sure there's a rule against it. And HVAC work definitely needs a permit.

I know a lot of pros on this site always advise to get permits and inspections, but .. I won't finish that sentence. :wink:

Just an FYI, you can use a large motorized post hole digger, the kind on small wheels you can tow behind a car. Dig the holes as deep as you can and then coil the pex in the bottom. Use sand to fill in voids and then refill the hole.

If anyone asks you are just planting a few trees and changed your mind....
Gooood idea.

BTW: planting / removing / delimbing trees? You got it. Permit! So I damb well better change my mind. :whistling2:

(And PS - Building inspectors around here actually drive around looking for violations. My father-in-law was replacing his own garage door and had a tarp covering the opening overnight. His neighbor told him he saw the inspector on the sidewalk peering at it from every angle. He's in a different town than I am, but same idea all over Long Island).
 
#18 ·
Ugh, don't get me started.. Town Of Oyster Bay, NY sets the rules. Get this: technically I need a permit to do any electrical work in my house. This includes changing a light switch or receptacle. Plumbing is not so bad, you can change fixtures, but anything else requires a permit. And they are DIY unfriendly: Plumbing permits need to be signed by a master plumber (and since they're responsible for the work, good luck getting them to sign off and let the homeowner do the work). Homeowners can do "simple electrical work", but they have to pass a written test given by the town, and submit full drawings of the intended work, and sit down with some kind of board to discuss it. You have to go through all that every time you want to do any work (well, I think the test is once every 5 years or so). Oh, and the most minor of permits cost ~$200.

Phew.

And I don't know exactly where digging up one's backyard falls in, but I'm sure there's a rule against it. And HVAC work definitely needs a permit.

I know a lot of pros on this site always advise to get permits and inspections, but .. I won't finish that sentence. :wink:



Gooood idea.

BTW: planting / removing / delimbing trees? You got it. Permit! So I damb well better change my mind. :whistling2:

(And PS - Building inspectors around here actually drive around looking for violations. My father-in-law was replacing his own garage door and had a tarp covering the opening overnight. His neighbor told him he saw the inspector on the sidewalk peering at it from every angle. He's in a different town than I am, but same idea all over Long Island).
And this is the plan for the US by some politicians who want to control everything we do. It's scary.

I got red flagged on one of my remodels so I drew up some plans for a shell and got a permit. It passed and now I am filling in inside since they can't see what I am doing and no one can turn me in.

Of course my taxes went up after the addition passed.

Portland does a flyover every year and photographs the city in case someone does an addition without a permit.

In Oregon we have a measure on the ballot where anything under $35,000 will not need a permit except for electrical and plumbing. Guess which way I am voting.

On to your hydronic cooling. What you are doing is not HVAC, you are just digging some holes. You could probably get by with a 3 foot hole.
 
#19 ·
This thread just took a turn to the ridiculous, and I think it is sad to see normally responsible posters on this site promulgating advice against securing a building permits. Furthermore, I find it nothing short of irresponsible to brag about circumventing permit requirements on interior work. If you put yourself out there as a reliable source of information on this site you need to give responsible advice, because people will take your advice as the gospel.

I have no problem with the arguments against the strict rules of Oyster Bay, NY. The requirement for a masters license is ridiculous, and it is furthermore ridiculous to discourage DIY projects. Jurisdictions like that put a bad taste in any reasonable person's mouth, including mine, and such rules only encourage DIYers to circumvent the permit requirement instead of being a self-advocate and getting their work inspected. I can enforce the code on any project no matter who did the work, masters license or not. It has been my experience that cities that have strict rules about masters licenses have very strong union influence. Unfortunate.

However, this is a DIY site, frequented by people that are amateurs, not professionals. In the vast majority of cases, DIYers are better served by getting the necessary inspections to double check their work for minimum safety standards. For that matter professionals are too.
 
#20 ·
KC,

.. And we're completely OT to boot. Sorry about that.

In the vast majority of cases, DIYers are better served by getting the necessary inspections to double check their work for minimum safety standards. For that matter professionals are too.
Look, I agree with you. I don't want my neighbor doing a hack electrical job, burning down his house and mine in the process. We're not exactly on farmland over here, so what one guy does can seriously impact those around him.

But the fact of the matter is there is no way I will ever pull a $200 permit and take a day off of work waiting for an inspector so that I can change a receptacle.

Oyster Bay is severe in its rules, and the reason I know this is because I read the town code (regarding building codes anyway) so that I could comply with it. I'd recommend every DIY'r do the same.

( http://gcp.esub.net/cgi-bin/om_isap...nfobase=oyster.nfo&softpage=Browse_Frame_Pg42 in case anyone's curious).

I do like to complain about it though, as does just about every homeowner around here..

I have nothing against inspections, but permits should be inexpensive and easy to obtain so that we can get to the inspection stage. Otherwise it encourages un-inspected work and unsafe practices, IMO. (Of which there are plenty around here).
 
#21 · (Edited)
KC,

.. And we're completely OT to boot. Sorry about that.



Look, I agree with you. I don't want my neighbor doing a hack electrical job, burning down his house and mine in the process. We're not exactly on farmland over here, so what one guy does can seriously impact those around him.

But the fact of the matter is there is no way I will ever pull a $200 permit and take a day off of work waiting for an inspector so that I can change a receptacle.

Oyster Bay is severe in its rules, and the reason I know this is because I read the town code (regarding building codes anyway) so that I could comply with it. I'd recommend every DIY'r do the same.

( http://gcp.esub.net/cgi-bin/om_isap...nfobase=oyster.nfo&softpage=Browse_Frame_Pg42 in case anyone's curious).

I do like to complain about it though, as does just about every homeowner around here..

I have nothing against inspections, but permits should be inexpensive and easy to obtain so that we can get to the inspection stage. Otherwise it encourages un-inspected work and unsafe practices, IMO. (Of which there are plenty around here).
Exactly.

Not only are they expensive, they use the upgrades to increase your taxes. So why would anyone want to have their taxes increased?

My home is listed as a 2 bedroom, one bath. That is good for me. My taxes are less than everyone else and I intend to keep it that way.

Then there is the inefficiency of the whole process. In my experience they make it so difficult to do any remodeling that many just don't do it.

My neighbor is disabled and lives on a fixed income. He wanted to get a wheel chair ramp and the city told him all the specification and informed him the permit was $200 and there were no exceptions.

His son and I just put it together. An inspector saw us finishing it up and checked for the permit. He red flagged the house. We threw the red tag away and finished the project.

The city came by and told him he had to tear it down. I called the TV and radio stations and told them the story. They called city hall to confirm the sequence of events. We never heard back from anyone and the ramp is still there and he uses it every day.

I never tell people to go without a permit. At the same time I never tell them to get a permit. I just don't talk about it. If they ask me if they should get one I just shrug my shoulders.

When I am working as a contractor I get permits and make sure the owner knows just how much they are paying to get these permits. I tell them how much less the job would be without having to deal with the city.

And that's all I have to say about that.
 
#24 ·
I love the tax argument and I agree. I hate taxes, but this is America...A capitalist economy that involves taxation for your slice of the pie...Bigger slices cost more. Perhaps you'd be happier in a socialist/communist country/economy where you get the same exact slice of the pie as the next guy.

Marvin Gardens;172020 I tell them how much less the job would be without having to deal with the city. [COLOR=darkorange said:
And I wonder...Do you give them a list of the items that the inspector catches you on during the entire course of the project?[/COLOR]
 
#26 ·
We used to be a capitalist economy. Now I just work so that I can bail out billion dollar companies.

I do everything to code. I have never had an inspector tell me to correct something.

Oh wait,,,there was that time that he had me insulate the pipes in a heated space "in case" the heat went out. I only insulated the pipes I put in and left the pipes right next to them uninsulated since I didn't put them in. He told me I had to insulate them and I said I didn't put them in, didn't modify them and won't be insulating them. I won, he lost.
 
#25 ·
thekctermite said:
I just don't want to see avoidance advertised as the right thing to do when discussing permits and inspections.
Fair enough, and I'll stick with MG and keep my mouth shut if I disagree with the need for a permit.. (Though the wheelchair ramp was a good example of where municipalities need to reduce permit fees or make exceptions. I'm sure he built it solidly, but someone else in the same boat, who knows?)

thekctermite said:
The scary installations that I see on permitted projects make me glad I do what I do, because fact is that it saves lives and property...The ones that don't have permits keep me up nights because god only knows the dangerous work that goes on.
Can't imagine what you've seen. And totally agreed it saves lives.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top