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Old 06-06-2008, 05:23 PM   #31
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Tankless water heater - NEED HELP!


plumbermark I am not going to argue with you on here that is not what this forum is about.I gave the man my honest estimate of what my electric went up.and after seeing what the gas was costing me and getting a letter from my gas company stating rates were going up and my avg bill would go to near 500 a month I shut all my gas off and went all electric it still cheaper.I will be hooking up propane for cooking though.As for the cost two Titan n-120 units hooked together cost me 145.00 each a certified electrician friend hooked up the electrical but only had to take the wire to a box I would say 8 ft away no charge .I just had an insurance inspection two months ago from Allstate when I changed policy to a replacement policy they asked about it when they saw it but didn't have any problem with it and yes it is marked in the policy that I have them I was not being a jerk when I answer what you had wrote and you can do you math all day if you want I know how much my bill went up and how many people live here and shower each day we are not dirty people.My clothes are clean and yes we even eat off of real plates and wash them every day.The good thing about a forum like this is everyone can give an opinion I tend to not give out answers unless I have something worth a darn to add if I don't I just read and learn.I had what I thought was a valid point to make to the mans question, I did I really like my electric tank less heaters if you don't OK we are all entitled to are opinions Thank You

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Old 06-06-2008, 05:35 PM   #32
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I think a large part of the problem people have here is locations are not listed. Betweeen gas and electric where I am gas is always cheaper for now. Having said that other parts of the country have different access to power and costs. Electric heat for water or space would at least double if not triple my monthly costs.
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Old 06-06-2008, 06:00 PM   #33
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Tankless water heater - NEED HELP!


Bob10 I agree I lived in Memphis for many years and all the utilities are one their MLGW Memphis light gas and water.They have some of the best rates in the country and my bills were always low in the summer maybe 35 dollars winter about 100-125.Now in NW Pa. and just one of my separate bills here is more then all 3 here
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Old 06-06-2008, 06:59 PM   #34
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Tankless water heater - NEED HELP!


Clasact, no argument intended..I tossed in a few humorous comments to break the monotony of the math, it IS pretty boring.
keep in mind -

At the heart of learning, there will always be disagreement.

Bottom line, I have never met anyone who claims electric is less cost than natural gas to heat.. it isn't possible with current market energy prices.
LP or oil is are different story as they're petrolium based, perhaps you were using LP and I missed that detail.

Someone looking to swap a tank type electric to a tankless electric would be in store for major disappointment.

We can basically say that all electric water heating devices are almost 100% efficient, whats lost in translation is the actual cost of electricity vs NG, electricity prices reflect transmission loss to get it to your home.

I'm saying that there are no situations that an electric tankless would benefit someone who has a tank type NG or electric heater. period.

On electric heaters, nearly all the input energy is absorbed through the elements, tank type or not...the only difference is standby heat loss.
I posted an estimated $1.50/month above, for the sake of argument lets double that to $3.

If you look at your electric bill you will probably find you cut down on other appliance use, maybe at that same time you stopped using your A/C, but it's almost impossible to have a $3 water heating bill on electric.

I can definitely see the $60 drop on your gas, but somethings wrong with that $3 estimated increase on your electric...you can't physically take a daily shower for $3 a month unless you have friends in high places at the light co.

I will also tell you I have lost several potential customers in the last year alone by being honest about switching from tank type electrics to tankless electric...I have absolutely nothing to gain in the honesty.

I get constant calls for green technology, much of it is hogwash, much of it is truly legite. Trouble is that so many plumbers willingly cater to customers delusions without being responsible and doing their homework.

To further illustrate my point, I called Seibel Eltron once to ask for efficiency ratings...
He kept reiterating how much money a tankless saves over a tank type...I asked him about how an electric tankless would save over an electric tank type ~NOT tankless in general~...he pummeled me with the incredible savings on standby heat loss.
I then asked him for some figures, he had none, no estimate on how much energy a tank type loses, just phrases like "one hundred percent of all heat loss is eliminated", "amazing" and "incredible"...no figures.
I then gave him some figures, he wouldn't disagree.

There are applications where an electric tankless might benefit a homeowner, but they're comparitively rare in cases where you have an oil, or propane heater and just so happen to have a 200+ amp service that has enough left to accomodate 120 amps.

I'm a plumber, I stand to gain by NOT bringing these points to light with first time customers...but the green craze has aroused alot of snake oil salesmen...I just can't hop that train, not my cup o' tea.
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Old 06-06-2008, 07:08 PM   #35
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Tankless water heater - NEED HELP!


I want to clarify, I DO install gas tankless's and indirects, I have seen bills after the fact on gas tankless's and there is a definite savings..generally 30% off the gas it takes to heat a tank type.
This is based on summer month bill comparisons.
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Old 08-26-2008, 05:10 PM   #36
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I'm just going to hijack this thread and not start another, since my problem is very identical to the original poster's.
Same deal - older house, water heater in the kitchen taking up valuable space that I would love to use as storage/more cabinet space, etc. Current tank wh, gas, is from 1990 I think, so must be well overdue for replacement, I am in the middle of total renovation (to a point where I'm replacing a lot of drywall and electrical and all plumbing). I am the only one living in the house with 2 baths and a kitchen.
Now I was thinking of going with a tankless - save room in kitchen, possibly save a few bucks, and the unit is not very expensive (found a few for around $1200 on the net). Now I already have a gas line running to the install location (used for old WH). From what I understand I will need a bigger line?
Question 2: Can I confine a tankless WH in a space the size of a large kitchen cabinet? I saw clearance req's - 12" top and bottom and 1" sides, 0" back. Said nothing about front. I will have one vent pipe going to the roof and can cut another through the wall. Otherwise I have to install it outside. I am kinda paranoid about gas heater inside the house, in the kitchen, about 3 feet from my stove... Maybe outside is a better option?
And for those of you who do installs for living - how much, on average to come hook it up? Considering I will already have plumbing ran to it, it will only need gas hook ups?
Thanks,
Tim.

edit: electric is not an option. I am on 100 Amp service for the whole house as is, seems that's the requirement just for the water heater. Although install seems easy for an electric unit, and they are cheaper... I was quoted $1500 to run a 200amp service... I dunno about that.
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Old 08-26-2008, 06:24 PM   #37
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Not sure where your kitchen is in relation to an exterior wall but I will assume one wall is exterior. Rinnai sells a cabinet that fits between the studs for and exterior install that vents out the front. Saves the cost of venting plumbing and saves the interior space you are wanting. Hope this helps if you require more info I am fairly certain Rinnai has the info on their website.
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Old 08-26-2008, 06:33 PM   #38
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I'm sorry for the confusion - yes, in fact the wall heater is sitting next to right now is an exterior wall, so line extensions would be minimal. I will look up Rinnai website... Thank you!
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Old 08-26-2008, 08:48 PM   #39
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Tankless water heater - NEED HELP!


Quote:
Originally Posted by moneymgmt View Post
Don't forget, part of the homework in these units is output to obtain a certain temperature rise. 8.2gpm might be true at a 50 degree incoming water temp for unit A, but at 70 degree temp for unit B.... 70 degrees incoming is not even possible in my area. I mention this because this is the only time we had an issue with ours; the water temp in the winter here in Michigan is much colder than the water dept. had told us to expect. the output sounds great, but make sure you know what your incoming temp is.
This is an important point, as the temperatures achieved by HWOD units are limited by the temperature of the inlet water and the flow rate. My Stiebel Eltron electric HWOD unit requires 0.5 gallons/minute flow before it will even fire up. I dealt with this by buying a special shower head that maintains the water flow through the shower at a steady 1.5 gallons/minute. The water heater so far has not failed me, although I must admit I do not think the heater is functioning as specified. I'll measure inlet and outlet temperature next time I'm in KS and get the differential, if it's not as specified I'll call the source, they have a technical service line.

I plan on making a batch-type solar water heater this summer to preheat the water to the WHOD unit. My only concern right now is whether or not I can avoid scalding temperatures, as there will be times in the summer when the solar heater will elevate the inlet temperature for the HWOD to the point that it will not need to fire up; in fact, the solar heater will heat water to a higher temperature than I can achieve with the WHOD unit alone.

This solar water pre-heater will be made with the water tank from the gas-fired tanked heater my HWOD replaced. Now, how's that for irony ???

Dugly

Last edited by YerDugliness; 08-27-2008 at 01:51 AM.
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Old 11-16-2008, 09:49 AM   #40
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Tankless water heater - NEED HELP!


I have been following your thread about the tankless heater, and I plan to go that route (small house, existing heater is junk, panel to best heater location is only a few feet, plenty of capacity left in the panel). My question is, can you describe how you are constructing the solar heater? Where will it be located? How much do you plan to spend?
Thanks,
tompehonda
Spartanburg, SC

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