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Old 08-25-2010, 09:17 AM   #31
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Tankless water heater Navien cr-210 ?


Correction, by then the unit WILL have to be replaced, or at least have to have had some service, so you can extend that 15 years right on out further.

Its a convenience only. If you have a lot of people, or like long baths, or wanna sex it up in the shower for an hour, great, you wont run out.
If you have a huge demand, such as a school multishower facility, you need them. If you have a bank of 10 shower in a locker, by code, you'd end up needing to store something like 1000 gallons of hot water with the capacity of another 100 per hour recovery. Thats often not feasible, so we'll design in a couple of these so we can get around 20 GPM of hot continuously.

Aside from that, don't bother. You'll never see the money back.

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Old 08-25-2010, 09:52 AM   #32
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Tankless water heater Navien cr-210 ?


I guess I don't follow your math. If you avrage gas cost for a standard tank unit is 30 per month. That's $360 per year. If a tankless unit only saves you half (which it will for sure if you buy a good condensing one) that's $180 per year. It looks like the avrage price for a tankless unit installed is about $2800. You have to also figure the 30% credit which would be about $800. Now the tankless costs $2000 And a tank style is $1000 for an electric and about $1500 for a power vented gas installed. We are only looking at a difference of $1000. 1000/ 180 = 5.5 years. Not a bad pay back.
Or $500 which would be a payback of 2.75 years!
My advice would be to return the Bosch. They really don't work very well in most places. I know of many people that have ended up pulling them out. I would hire a plumber that installs either navien or rinnai and have them install a condensing unit. Then you will get the proper gas line installed and everything will be guaranteed.
I have install dozens of both brands and they are very good.
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Old 08-25-2010, 10:14 AM   #33
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Tankless water heater Navien cr-210 ?


As I said in my earlier post, my Navien unit had to be entirely replaced after only two years because of a design flaw. The warranty covered labor only up to a year, so I'm out $1000 on the second installation. I wrote to the company to protest this since their design flaw was at fault. No reply.

Only one plumbing outfit installs/services Navien in my region and they're considering dropping the brand altogether because of the recurrent service calls and problems.

Reading the various chatrooms on tankless heaters, I'm struck by the finicky nature of these units and consequent accrued costs. If I had to do it over again, I would've gone for the most energy efficient tank heater.
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Old 08-26-2010, 11:54 AM   #34
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Tankless water heater Navien cr-210 ?


You guys also need to realize the fact that once this unit is installed, properly, replacing it with the same one is fairly simple. Shut off water, gas, breaker, take off plumbing and replace. I made sure I put valved on all the plumbing around the units. If someone is also charging $1k to replace this, you need to look elsewhere.

One more major factor for a lot of people is the space that it saves. I have 2, 2 family houses. One house with 3 baths, one with 5. The fact that I can split the gas bill between the two units is great. Both these tank-less in each house take up 1/4 the space of ONE 75gal tank unit. The savings in these situations are even more noticeable. The 75gal heaters I had, were not cheap either, the gas bills went down 60% on the average. I can't tell for sure because cooking, heat, and hot water, all use the same gas. But the savings are there.
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Old 09-07-2010, 07:35 PM   #35
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Tankless water heater Navien cr-210 ?


hi,,as for the efficiency costs, no one has mentioned the usage of combustion air that the gas tank heater uses and associated costs with that(assuming all air is supplied from inside). Up here in Canada, the CGA gives an annual average usage for canadian residential properties (2009 data) 2,626 cubic meters. Now this equates to 92,736 cubic feet; and it takes minimum of 15x amount of air for combustion ( 10x theoretical, and 5x secondary air), so now we're talking about 1,391,040 cubic feet of air required to combust this 92736 cubic feet of gas --- now no matter how you calculate the cost of conditioning your house air per cubic foot,,,its an added expense that is not being considered, and im sure it makes somewhat of a difference when you take into account how much electricity you're air conditioner uses, to cool off the tank water heater's combustion air. now all this being said, cut those numbers by the percentage of the 92736 that the tank water heater uses, and this will surely make more of a savings than has been calculated so far by the previous posts...by the way,,great thread guys.
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Old 09-07-2010, 10:01 PM   #36
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Tankless water heater Navien cr-210 ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by slickgt1 View Post
You guys also need to realize the fact that once this unit is installed, properly, replacing it with the same one is fairly simple. Shut off water, gas, breaker, take off plumbing and replace. I made sure I put valved on all the plumbing around the units. If someone is also charging $1k to replace this, you need to look elsewhere.
Sure, if you live in NYC, or some other metropolis. Here, in North Country New York there are a mere handful of authorized Navien installers. In my area, there's only one (count 'em: one) authorized installer within a hundred miles. As for warranty repairs, Navien won't deal with non-authorized installers (if you could find one who would even take the job because they don't know the product). My failed unit was under warranty for replacement (the labor coverage expired). Navien identified the installer (100 miles away) and would deal only with them. Period. I was between a rock and a hard place. The installer, in fact, is excellent with a longstanding positive reputation. It took them four hours to put in the new unit.
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Old 09-08-2010, 10:58 AM   #37
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Tankless water heater Navien cr-210 ?


Quote:
Originally Posted by installr View Post
hi,,as for the efficiency costs, no one has mentioned the usage of combustion air that the gas tank heater uses and associated costs with that(assuming all air is supplied from inside). Up here in Canada, the CGA gives an annual average usage for canadian residential properties (2009 data) 2,626 cubic meters. Now this equates to 92,736 cubic feet; and it takes minimum of 15x amount of air for combustion ( 10x theoretical, and 5x secondary air), so now we're talking about 1,391,040 cubic feet of air required to combust this 92736 cubic feet of gas --- now no matter how you calculate the cost of conditioning your house air per cubic foot,,,its an added expense that is not being considered, and im sure it makes somewhat of a difference when you take into account how much electricity you're air conditioner uses, to cool off the tank water heater's combustion air. now all this being said, cut those numbers by the percentage of the 92736 that the tank water heater uses, and this will surely make more of a savings than has been calculated so far by the previous posts...by the way,,great thread guys.
No not really what you think. First of this unit needs fresh air, as in a you run a pipe to the outside to get air. You do not take this air from inside, and you do not vent the air to the inside. You have no idea what you are talking about here.
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Old 09-08-2010, 11:00 AM   #38
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Tankless water heater Navien cr-210 ?


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Originally Posted by angkor View Post
Sure, if you live in NYC, or some other metropolis. Here, in North Country New York there are a mere handful of authorized Navien installers. In my area, there's only one (count 'em: one) authorized installer within a hundred miles. As for warranty repairs, Navien won't deal with non-authorized installers (if you could find one who would even take the job because they don't know the product). My failed unit was under warranty for replacement (the labor coverage expired). Navien identified the installer (100 miles away) and would deal only with them. Period. I was between a rock and a hard place. The installer, in fact, is excellent with a longstanding positive reputation. It took them four hours to put in the new unit.
you have a point. Only thing I'm saying is that you don't need to be a rocket scientist to install one, let alone replace one. Yea its involved, and you would need help, but they come with instructions too.
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Old 09-09-2010, 10:08 AM   #39
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Tankless water heater Navien cr-210 ?


Slick, that was one of the dumbest posts I've ever read on any forum.
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Old 09-09-2010, 03:05 PM   #40
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Tankless water heater Navien cr-210 ?


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Originally Posted by slickgt1 View Post
No not really what you think. First of this unit needs fresh air, as in a you run a pipe to the outside to get air. You do not take this air from inside, and you do not vent the air to the inside. You have no idea what you are talking about here.
hey there slick...you better read my post a little better, or quit drinkin' ...of course the TANKLESS has air in and out from the outside. its the TANK heater i am describing. i think you are the high school drop out that has a little trouble with the english comprehension (komp-re-hen-shun)
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Old 09-13-2010, 10:29 AM   #41
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Tankless water heater Navien cr-210 ?


One, I'm Russian, so there might be a language barrier, especially when talking to rednecks. Two, I'm a mechanical engineer from Russia, and went through Polytechnic U in NY to get re-certified. Trust me, you wouldn't be able to hack it in all the schooling I've been through. It just happened that I make more, and do less in construction.

Three, yea I misread your post installr, no need to attack me for that. I may or may not have been hung over, I don't see it as a problem though.

Four, we had these tank-less systems in Russia about 15-20 years ago. Not as nice as the new modern stuff, but the idea is the same. All I have been trying to state on this thread, is that they are efficient, and I try to sell them on every job I take.

P.S. I am not affiliated with any of these companies, nor is this my main area of expertise.

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