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Old 06-14-2013, 11:03 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
Majority of the time, you will lose your side of the case, when the person appeals the dismissal with the unemployment hearing board.
You do not fire him for using the fittings, you fire them for not adhering to company policy and you will win every time.
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Old 06-14-2013, 11:26 AM   #32
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Fire them on the spot.


My guess is you operate a plumbing company doing New Construction or have no experience doing residential service.

Your point is irrelevant and based on nothing but bias passed on by people who are behind in the times.

You can't fire a worker for using a product approved by code for use. If you do it is grounds for appeal by the employment standards act.
Unfortunately your incorrect started out as a repair plumber in the 70s 1973 to be exact joined the union in 85 then went into new construction working on high-rise first then hospitals etc, started my shop in 91 doing a 60/40 repairs and new construction, I base my statement on my years of experience, and the fact that a plumbing outfit is only as good as the plumber it sends out to a customer home or place of business, I hold my guys to a professional standard and we charge as such thereís no way I will allow anyone of them to use an item targeted to the non professional or inexperienced individual , and those fittings fail seen them fail under ideal installs and poor installs. I can understand an emergency repair but not a permanent one. And for firing someone that fails to do things the way I want it done, code or no code its my business my license and the way I support my family ill be dammed if I let anyone person disregard any of that. You will not find any complaints insurance claims law suits or negative information on my company because of the way I run my shop. If you like them and let your crews use them knock yourself out , itís your shop youíve earned the right to do with it as you wish.
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Old 06-14-2013, 11:30 AM   #33
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I find it very interesting that compression fittings are not allowed underground, but sharkbites are. Does anyone know the logic behind this?

I Personally think sharkbites are wonderful where you want to transition from one material to another on a straight run. Yes you have to prepare the pipes properly, and be diligent when installing them, but that is true of all connections, of every type.

I would never use them for a complete install, though, due to more than just cost. In defense of Javiles and his boss, if an employee wants to use sharkbites and they are not allowed by his company, then the employee can go and work somewhere else where they are allowed. After all, who is going to have to bear the cost of the damage if one lets go? Im sure the suppliers liability is limited to the cost of a new fitting.

My opinion regarding sharkbites is of course just my opinion, but my logic is sound. At least I think it is.

With regard to plumbing supply lines under pressure my choice would be as follows:

Soldered
Solvent welded, (glued)
Compression.
Sharkbite
Crimped

Time will tell whether my list is correct. 1 through 3 have already proven themselves, in my experience.

I think an owner has every right to demand certain practices based on his personal experience. After all, how many things are allowed "By Code" that many of us do not agree with?
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:05 PM   #34
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I do (or would, theoretically...based on Javiles' statement)...I (he, in this case) don't allow them to be used. You don't HAVE to allow your employees to muttle through doing things to bare minumum code requirements...you can require a higher standard, and if they don't meet those higher standards, then....time to go.
No disagreement on that, with holding your employees at a higher standard than the competition. But with that, comes educating your employees on newer technologies, and keeping them informed with code changes, working together, so that if one is having problems in an area, or even needing a change in how they look at things, everyone should work with those that cannot find direction.

But also on the other side, if there are those that just do not get it, no matter what you the owner/boss or other employees have done to try to teach them easier ways to do the job better and faster, or continue to follow policy by showing up to work sober, on time, if on call go to the call, not put it off, because they are in the middle of watching a movie, or at their kids game, follow up with the customer if there is a problem, not shove it off to get lost or have the owner fix the problem, then you need to let them go and explain why they are being let go, do not sugar coat it, or make up an excuse why.

We have friends who own a PT/OT business, and they had to do some real severe damage control, due to one of their employees was not only bad mouthing the business to clients, but also our friends the owners, and making them look like bad people. Ended up the employee was unable to collect UIB, because our friends had enough documentation and statements from other employees, including clients that this employee was just one of those we can call a bad egg, and pretty much burned their bridges.

Going back to the topic, as for the Shark bites, if it is an emergency call, and knowing that it needs to be up and back in business, like a business call during lunch or evening rush hour, you can get them back up and running in 10 mins, then come back after the rush, or towards close, to take off the Shark Bite, and fix the problem with a soldered coupling, if say a frozen pipe, or bad solder joint just finally let go and started leaking.

I only use them, because most times if it is a shut off in a cabinet, and I cannot get the wrench in there to turn the compression fitting, I will use the Shark bite. Next door neighbor had a old shower in her basement leaking, and since there was no shut off to it, and this shower is never used, for a fix, I ended up just cutting the lines to the faucet, and using Sharkbite dead-ends, to cap the pipes, so that she was not wasting water. Now just waiting for my plumber to call me back, so that we can solder shut-offs on the pipes for her, or solder on caps, since I leave that stuff to him, because that is what I pay him for.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:12 PM   #35
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You do not fire him for using the fittings, you fire them for not adhering to company policy and you will win every time.
Still, you cannot fire them, because they used Shark bite fittings, which are allowed by code. You have to find something that they did, and have multiple instances, along with documentation that they did not do the job as they were hired to perform their duties.

Try telling an appeal board that you fired someone because they used a code compliant fixture to do the job, without showing just cause, only because you as the owner do not like them, the appeal board will dismiss the case, and issue the UIB.

Just because you do not like the product, it is really up to your employees to follow what you would like them to use to do the job, but there are times, you may find that in an emergency situation, that the Shark bite is easier to use, or when you cannot get in there to do the compression or even solder the fitting.

You have to remember, that I have a minor in Business Law, so even as a business owner, stating that just because you do not like an employee, you just cannot walk in and tell them to pack their desk and leave. You have to have reasons why you are letting them go (company unable to meet ends, employee performance very sub-par, multiple call-ins than allowed under policy within reasonable cause, continuously late to work, or back from lunch, refusal to perform their job tasks as assigned, or just one of those who cannot just get it, and unable to really perform the job, no matter how much you have mentored or counseled them in their performance.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:14 PM   #36
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Javiles, the fittings fail, due to people not installing them per the manufacturer directions, not because of the device itself. Yes there is a chance you can get a bad part off the shelf. Happens with anything that is manufactured, no matter what it is.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:27 PM   #37
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Still, you cannot fire them, because they used Shark bite fittings, which are allowed by code. You have to find something that they did, and have multiple instances, along with documentation that they did not do the job as they were hired to perform their duties.

Try telling an appeal board that you fired someone because they used a code compliant fixture to do the job, without showing just cause, only because you as the owner do not like them, the appeal board will dismiss the case, and issue the UIB.

Just because you do not like the product, it is really up to your employees to follow what you would like them to use to do the job
Yes you can. It really doesn't matter that this is a code approved method.

This is no different than violating a no smoking on premise policy.

You violate policy and you can be fired and no labor board will repeal.

I am not saying one strike, but it can be.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:39 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by gregzoll View Post
Still, you cannot fire them, because they used Shark bite fittings, which are allowed by code. You have to find something that they did, and have multiple instances, along with documentation that they did not do the job as they were hired to perform their duties.

Try telling an appeal board that you fired someone because they used a code compliant fixture to do the job, without showing just cause, only because you as the owner do not like them, the appeal board will dismiss the case, and issue the UIB.

Just because you do not like the product, it is really up to your employees to follow what you would like them to use to do the job, but there are times, you may find that in an emergency situation, that the Shark bite is easier to use, or when you cannot get in there to do the compression or even solder the fitting.

You have to remember, that I have a minor in Business Law, so even as a business owner, stating that just because you do not like an employee, you just cannot walk in and tell them to pack their desk and leave. You have to have reasons why you are letting them go (company unable to meet ends, employee performance very sub-par, multiple call-ins than allowed under policy within reasonable cause, continuously late to work, or back from lunch, refusal to perform their job tasks as assigned, or just one of those who cannot just get it, and unable to really perform the job, no matter how much you have mentored or counseled them in their performance.
No, you fire them for using sharkbite fitting after you TOLD them not to...you're the boss, remember...you get to TELL people what to do, not ask if they wouldn't mind not using those fitting...you TELL them not to....call it insubordination or call it company policy or call it whatever...if you tell an employee that they are NOT to EVER do something, and then you catch them doing the very thing you told them not to do....you can fire them. No other BS "reason" is needed.
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:46 PM   #39
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Quote from Idaho Labor FAQ's (my state)

Idaho is a "work at will" state. This means there is no set length for an employment relationship and either the employer or the employee may end it at any time, with or without notice; with or without cause. If there is an employer policy, employment contract or union agreement, the employment relationship may be subject to the terms and conditions of that policy, contract or agreement. The policies, contracts and agreements set up and enforced by the employer, must be in compliance with Idaho’s wage payment laws.
There are some exceptions to an employer's right to terminate an employee. For example, employees should never be terminated for a discriminatory or retaliatory reason or a violation of public policy.


I have seen plumbers terminated for not keeping a clean vehicle, smoking in the truck, not answering an after hour call- causing the backup man to take it, using a piercing valve for an ice maker line, not camering a mainline after cabeling, late for work......to name a few
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Old 06-14-2013, 12:59 PM   #40
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I prefer to use black pipe and weld all the joints and then cover the welds with liberal amounts of pipe dope.
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:14 PM   #41
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I prefer to use black pipe and weld all the joints and then cover the welds with liberal amounts of pipe dope.
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:28 PM   #42
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Majority of the time, you will lose your side of the case, when the person appeals the dismissal with the unemployment hearing board.
" Who cares about the unemployment board as long as the loser is not on my payroll anymore?"
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:32 PM   #43
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Try to fire him if he is black

Try to pay her less because she is a women

Try to fire a worker if he is Gay
" How did all this political correct stuff get started Backwoods?" Were talking about firing people not all that other stuff.
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:36 PM   #44
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" How did all this political correct stuff get started Backwoods?" Were talking about firing people not all that other stuff.
Maybe it's because I mention black pipe?
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Old 06-14-2013, 01:36 PM   #45
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" Who cares about the unemployment board as long as the loser is not on my payroll anymore?"
Try stating that during an appeal hearing. You can find yourself losing more than an employee. You can lose your license and be fined thousands of dollars.

Comments like yours shows why most businesses wonder why prople do not use them, or go with someone else after the truth comes out about the owners way of thinking.
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