Rough In Valve Function Question - Plumbing - DIY Home Improvement | DIYChatroom
Advertisement


Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Plumbing


CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-31-2016, 01:00 PM   #1
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 12
Rewards Points: 24
Default

Rough in valve function question


Hello,
I am remodeling my bathroom. First time for me. I have a hair-brained idea for a wall of water and I'd be interested to know if it is possible or perhaps lunacy.

What I want to do is to have two standard Delta rough in valves fed by separate hot/cold supply lines so I'll have independent temperature controls for the two systems as follows and hopefully adequate water pressure.

To the first rough in valve, I would like to have a regular shower head supplied by the tub spout outlet on the rough in with a shutoff valve on the shower head arm to act as a diverter which, when engaged, will divert water to a rain shower head supplied through the shower outlet on the rough in and routed from the ceiling. So, when the water is flipped on the regular shower head will come on (as if it were the tub spout), then when I pull the spring chain shutoff valve, the water will divert through the rain shower head.

To the second rough in valve, I'd like to attach a hand shower wand to the tub spout outlet on the rough in, with a shutoff valve at the supply outlet for the hand shower which, when engaged, will divert water to a set of wall sprayers fed from the shower port of the rough in through a manifold. Fort he wall sprayers, I chose the basic water-saving shower heads you'd find at the local rec center (e.g., this one: https://www.amazon.com/LDR-502-1100-...N%3DB000I1EA70) and I would like to have six of them fed by a manifold in the wall.

Hopefully that is clear. I'm wondering if there is any reason (other than risk of leakage from the many connections required for the manifold) the above is not possible. Can the tub spout outlet on the rough in valve be used like that? I've read that the tub spout needs to be copper (all the rest will be pex tubing attached to brass stub outs for the shower heads) and at least 8" straight down from the tub spout outlet in the rough in valve.

Thoughts or recommendations regarding this scheme are most appreciated.

Thanks

Advertisement


Last edited by spacepunch; 12-31-2016 at 01:04 PM.
spacepunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2017, 09:02 AM   #2
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 146
Rewards Points: 288
Default

Re: Rough in valve function question


You can get delta diverter valves that would do what you're describing in a more elegant way. They come in every trim variant. If you have access to a wholesaler, ask to look at their Delta book and they'll show you. Otherwise the Delta website probably has it too.

Edit to add that your scheme is not very unusual especially in new homes. We joke around that "no one can have a normal shower anymore". These are the things I'd try to be aware of:

Have at least full 3/4" supplies feeding into it. Obviously it'd split down to 1/2" to feed each valve but I would be against 1/2" lines splitting to feed both shower valves.

Also and this is the main one, be aware of your hot water capacity. A regular shower valves consumes around 2.5 gallons/min and most of that in hot water. Now you have 2 valves so figure peak capacity could be 5+ gpm. Maybe more because the restriction is really at the showerhead not the valve. Recovery rates on electric water heaters are pretty low and gas is only vaguely better. On demand water heaters might cut your throughput if you're demanding more than it can produce. So just be aware of your hot water capacity and how long you can sustain a shower in this system.

Advertisement


Last edited by BlackTiger; 01-01-2017 at 09:22 AM.
BlackTiger is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to BlackTiger For This Useful Post:
spacepunch (01-03-2017)
Old 01-01-2017, 10:55 AM   #3
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,748
Rewards Points: 2,042
Default

Re: Rough in valve function question


Depending on which code your under you may have a need for a 3 inch shower drain to handle that amount of water discharge. The drain size is based on what you can have on the same time times flow of head or device.
Ghostmaker is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ghostmaker For This Useful Post:
spacepunch (01-03-2017)
 
Old 01-01-2017, 02:24 PM   #4
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 146
Rewards Points: 288
Default

Re: Rough in valve function question


Realistically a 2" shower drain can take a LOT of water. We've installed 2 shower valves plenty of times and never even considered going to a 3" drain, and never had problems either.
BlackTiger is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to BlackTiger For This Useful Post:
spacepunch (01-03-2017)
Old 01-01-2017, 08:38 PM   #5
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Ohio
Posts: 4,748
Rewards Points: 2,042
Default

Re: Rough in valve function question


Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackTiger View Post
Realistically a 2" shower drain can take a LOT of water. We've installed 2 shower valves plenty of times and never even considered going to a 3" drain, and never had problems either.
If your code official knows the IPC code he should flag you at >4 heads with a 2 inch drain. But I can't see it from my house the max drainage of a 2 inch pipe by gravity is 12.3 GPM.
Ghostmaker is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Ghostmaker For This Useful Post:
spacepunch (01-03-2017)
Old 01-03-2017, 11:53 AM   #6
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 12
Rewards Points: 24
Default

Re: Rough in valve function question


Thanks for all the responses. I've decided to reduce the number of wall showerheads to 4. The final arrangement will be:
Rough in valve 1 fed by 1/2" H/C supply: tub spout outlet --> shower hear with positive shutoff/diverter valve; shower outlet --> rain shower head with positive shutoff/diverter valve
Rough in valve 2 fed by separate 1/2" H/C supply: tub spout outlet --> hand shower wand with positive shutoff/diverter at wall supply source; shower outlet --> four water-saving shower heads stubbed out from a manifold.

It looks like I'll be able to use a 2" drain after all (whew!).

I'll put up some pictures as it comes together.

Thanks again!
spacepunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2017, 05:56 PM   #7
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 12
Rewards Points: 24
Default

Re: Rough in valve function question


How significantly do elbow and T fittings affect water pressure?

My rough in valves would go in a lot easier with an elbow for the H/C supplies. However, one of the rough in valves shower outlets will feed the 4 wall sprayers on a 1/2" manifold with four elbows and five T fittings. I vaguely remember reading that a bunch of elbows can diminish h2o pressure.

Will all those changes of direction crush my water pressure? Thanks
spacepunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2017, 06:57 PM   #8
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 146
Rewards Points: 288
Default

Re: Rough in valve function question


It depends on what system you're using. Expansion pex offers higher ID fittings that cause less flow loss than crimp style pex. I'm not sure how it compares with pressed or sweated copper.

In my mind, it'll be your water pressure coming into the valve that will affect it more than the elbows. I don't think body jets pull that much water each. But I don't have solid numbers on that.

I still feel like instead of some kind of tub-replacating shutoff, you would be more satisfied with a dedicated diverter valve.

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...+diverter+trim
BlackTiger is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to BlackTiger For This Useful Post:
spacepunch (01-03-2017)
Old 01-03-2017, 08:20 PM   #9
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 12
Rewards Points: 24
Default

Re: Rough in valve function question


Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackTiger View Post
It depends on what system you're using. Expansion pex offers higher ID fittings that cause less flow loss than crimp style pex. I'm not sure how it compares with pressed or sweated copper.

In my mind, it'll be your water pressure coming into the valve that will affect it more than the elbows. I don't think body jets pull that much water each. But I don't have solid numbers on that.

I still feel like instead of some kind of tub-replacating shutoff, you would be more satisfied with a dedicated diverter valve.

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...+diverter+trim
Space was my concern about in-wall diverter versus on-wall close valves at hand shower on circuit 1 and shower head on circuit 1. I thought about using a diverter but space is extremely tight with all the stuff I'm stuffing in the 17.5" x 80" 2x4 box in the wall, space is precious with 2x mixer handles, 2x H/C supply, and 7x fixture stub outs for the shower and rain, hand shower and 4 wall sprayers, all arranged in a crazy manifold. A little ambitions maybe.

I made a prototype with 6 wall sprayers, but backed off and decided 4 wall sprayers was good enough and complicated enough.

The previous water pressure was excellent and the flow rate is currently 5+ gal/min at the 1/2" pex risers from the crawl space for the two sets of H/C for the two rough in valves.

With a diverter valve, I've read for a shower only install that it is possible to install the rough in valve upside down to exploit the tub outlet's unrestricted diameter (my Delta rough in valve has a copper insert restricting the shower outlet) and cap the shower outlet. Doing that could save me some space if I only had to plumb one outlet from the rough in valve.

Would it be madness to try to remove the little copper restricting sleeve in the shower outlet of my Delta rough in valve?
spacepunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 04:40 PM   #10
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 146
Rewards Points: 288
Default

Re: Rough in valve function question


I'm not sure about the restrictor. We usually pull out the little black plastic thing inside the valve that I think is some kind of restrictor, but haven't ever felt an urge to go after the insert.

Won't doing it your way mean you can only have either the rainfall head OR the body jets on, but not both?

If it was me, I'd use an integrated handsprayer/showerhead or a diverter valve that is in-line on the shower arm for the primary shower valve. That would keep that one simple. Then I would have an in-wall diverter valve off the second shower valve which controls the rainfall head and the body jets. Then you'd have a switch that would let you turn on one, the other, or both. Without having to physically alter the shower valve and using everything exactly how it's designed instead of something rigged up to work.

I know you are having space issues. Do you only have access to one of the wall bays to work in? With 1/2" pex you can just drill little 3/4" holes into the adjacent bay and have your tees in there for added space maybe.

Do you have any pictures or drawnigs of the work area or is this more hypothetical rightnow? I'm just curious what it looks like.
BlackTiger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 08:51 PM   #11
Newbie
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 12
Rewards Points: 24
Default

Re: Rough in valve function question


Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackTiger View Post

Won't doing it your way mean you can only have either the rainfall head OR the body jets on, but not both?
It will be the hand shower or the wall sprayers. Either the regular or the rain shower head is controlled by the second rough in valve and can be on at the same time as the hand shower or the wall sprayers.

Rough in valve function question-shower-wall-vent-left-scaled.jpg

Rough in valve function question-shower-wall-box-laid-out-scaled.jpg

Here are pictures of the shower wall space and the box with roughly where the valves and stub ins will go. It's 17.5" width on the wall box to fit between the vent and the corner studs.

The back side of the shower wall is a closet so there is potential access that way in a pinch.

I'm going to exploit the curve in the pex to make a circular 4 sprayer manifold of about 7" radius with T fittings for the stub outs fed by the tub spout of the upside down rough in valve #1 and the hand shower fed by the "shower" spout on the bottom of the upside down valve. With a switch at the water supply for the hand wand, it should divert to the manifold so it's either wand or wall.

I plan on having the rain shower on a spring pull valve so you can pull the chain for a rain deluge with the wall showers or the wand. As it's set up, a sustained rain shower would require holding the chain valve open or attaching it to something.

Could I use a diverter for the rain/shower combo that would still let me use the chain for the rain deluge? E.g., the diverter would allow either/both rain/shower but if it was just on shower and I pulled the rain shower chain, the rain shower would turn on. Maybe not the clearest explanation.
spacepunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2017, 09:50 PM   #12
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Posts: 146
Rewards Points: 288
Default

Re: Rough in valve function question


Ok this is a little confusing but I think I know what you're saying.

You would need to split the shower valves output into both the diverter valve and your chain valve. Then merge the output of both your chain valve and the rainfall head's diverter port.

At least I think that would work, never tried anything like it.

Advertisement

BlackTiger is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
plumbing , rough in , shower plumbing , shower valve , tub spout


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question about bathroom sink valve steve3847 Plumbing 10 03-19-2014 07:43 PM
plumbing valve question - leak help Plumbkateer Plumbing 15 12-22-2013 09:59 AM
Moen 3510 Valve Rough In Dilemma ecommerceaustin Plumbing 14 01-30-2013 08:18 PM
Delta shower valve replacement on exterior wall muellertr Plumbing 6 01-02-2013 07:07 AM
New sprinkler valve leak question Pawl Landscaping & Lawn Care 3 09-03-2012 08:41 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

 

Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.6.1