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Old 09-09-2010, 06:45 PM   #1
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Reading a blueprint


Hi,

Please help solve an argument between my wife and I.

OK. We're building a house and I feel like the plumbers did not install the pipes to spec. I feel like, according to the blueprints, a hot water recirculation pump was suppose to be installed, with it connecting the 2nd and 1st floors pipe to a circulation pump on the water heater. I'm attaching a cut of the blueprint to explain what I'm talking about.

Now, they believe that since there is not another pipe, that it doesn't exist. They're saying that the pipe is a "stub" so you can connect one at a later time. None of our papers talk about a recirc pump, and this was not offered as an option. I just saw it on the blueprints, thought that it was cool that they did this, and later found out that it's not there. Also, our blueprints have our name and address, so it seems to me like they aren't 'generic' prints.

My dad (an engineer), my coworker (use to build houses), and I believe that if it's on the blueprint, and it is, then it should be installed. The builder, the plumbing inspector (city), and the building inspector (city) say that yeah, it's just a "stub" and that it doesn't have to be installed. My wife doesn't understand the convenience of a recirc pump yet, so she could care less.

So, if you look at the prints, do you think that one should be installed? Am I correct to think that the squigley "z" type mark at the end of the pipe means just a continuation, similar to a "...foo" in a sentence? Or, am I just wrong in this whole thing and it actually does mean a stub.


Thanks in advance...
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Old 09-09-2010, 06:51 PM   #2
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Reading a blueprint


Do you mean the dotted line ?
That usually means an option

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Old 09-09-2010, 06:52 PM   #3
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Reading a blueprint


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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
Do you mean the dotted line ?
That usually means an option
Actually, I take it as the solid line is the cold water, the dotted line (- - -) is the hot water.
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Old 09-09-2010, 06:56 PM   #4
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Reading a blueprint


DOH....Ok...that makes sense
So do you mean the 2 downward lines that are incomplete ?

--return to HW tank ?
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Old 09-09-2010, 08:21 PM   #5
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Reading a blueprint


Don't worry about it. It's late and I'm tired as well.

The parts I'm talking about are the "1/2" hot water return to w.h." lines, like you mentioned. So yes, it's the two lines that are incomplete.

I took it as they're incomplete because it would just get messy with additional lines, and since they are notated that they are return to the water heater, then that's what they do.

Other people though, have different thoughts about this. They think they are just "stubs" and how they are just terminated at that point.

I'm trying to get an unbiased opinion because it's one of those things where I think I'm right and others think they're right. So, what do you think?
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Old 09-09-2010, 08:44 PM   #6
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Reading a blueprint


if you notice, there is that little squiggle at the end of the pipes followed by a notation of "1/2" return to W.H" and then at the W.H. there is the little squiggle where the return line is at the W.H.


As you suggested, that simply means they didn't diagram the in between sections. While the supply lines are spec'd per the diagram to be installed in a certain fashion, the return line isn't but it is still indicated as being there. If you notice, as the supply lines run through, there are size indications at many points. That is why you need to show the complete system. With the return, it is simply a 1/2" all the way so there is no need to show the size changes.


It is definitely not a stub. A stub would be indicated as a stub and likely be directed to cap at that point.

So, the print definitely shows a return system in the riser diagram.

Now, whether that was included in your build or not would depend on the contract. There are often times where optional items are included on a drawing. If the contract requires the build to be per the print and there is no indication anywhere the return is optional, it should have been installed.

just to let you know. I am a pro electrician, not a plumber but I am familiar with drawings such as this. I tend to try to understand all the other systems in a build as they often play into my work. In this situation, if the spec book called out for division 16 (electrical work) to supply power for all div 15 (mechanical work) equipment, I would read the print as there is power required for the circulating pump and likely an aquastat (a thermostat switch for the water line) and looked further into this to be sure it is needed.

I don't know if there is an equipment schedule included in your the documents you have but if there is, I would look for a recirc pump and the power requirements for it. If you can find it there, it was intended to be put in (of course, barring he explicit notation that it was an optional item)

Last edited by nap; 09-09-2010 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 09-09-2010, 09:06 PM   #7
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Reading a blueprint


I'd have to agree w/Nap
It does show a pump down at the HW heater

Now what confused me at 1st....and still does
You usually see cold water going TO the HW heater...then hot pipe going out
But I do not have 2 pipes exiting my HW heater & going to the floors above
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Old 09-09-2010, 09:09 PM   #8
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Reading a blueprint


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Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
I'd have to agree w/Nap
It does show a pump down at the HW heater

Now what confused me at 1st....and still does
You usually see cold water going TO the HW heater...then hot pipe going out
But I do not have 2 pipes exiting my HW heater & going to the floors above
that solid line is the cold water supply line. I suspect if you saw the complete drawing, you would see where the cold water comes into the building and the tap to the water heater would then look like a tap into the cold water system rather than what it looks like in that drawing which is it does look like both hot and cold come from the WH.

I suspect the supply is off towards where you see the Lav on the 1st floor to the right. If you notice, it has a 1" line going that way. The only reason I can see that is it is the supply to the entire cold water side of the system.
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Old 09-09-2010, 09:29 PM   #9
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Reading a blueprint


Interesting...if the dashed line is cold feed...since expansion tank is on the solid line
Then it shows the feed to the fridge off the hot water line
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Old 09-09-2010, 09:36 PM   #10
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Reading a blueprint


Nap,

Thanks for the great information. You are correct to say that the supply line is over by the lavatory.

It's good to know that I'm right and everybody else is wrong. :P Now the next part is to try to convince the builder of this, but I believe I'm going to have a hard time doing this. I read the contract and there's nothing about the 'blueprints' in the contract. The only things that are included are generic floorplans and a generic list of equipment. IE: 6 fan outlets, etc.

Since I swiped the blueprints and copied them, I'm going to say that all of this is a no go. A normal person would not know about this because they usually don't see the blueprints. Since it's not in the contract and nothing that joe homeowner would see, I'm going to say that it's not going to happen. It would be awesome if it does, but I get the feeling like it's a no-go. I wrote our lawyer today to see what she says. If she says let it go, then that is what I will do.

Nonetheless, it's not many times I can say this, but I'm glad that I was right and the wife knows I'm not crazy. :D
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Old 09-10-2010, 04:04 PM   #11
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Reading a blueprint


Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuba_Dave View Post
Interesting...if the dashed line is cold feed...since expansion tank is on the solid line
Then it shows the feed to the fridge off the hot water line
the dashed line is the hot water line. The solid is the cold water line.

I am not familiar with plumbing codes to say which line the expansion tank should be on. In the drawing, it is on the cold water line.

If you notice, there is also a ball valve on that same line. That would be the shut off to the water heater.

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