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vetting 07-23-2010 03:12 PM

Question regarding floor drain and sump pump combo
 
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I just cleaned up from my second sewer backup in the last 7 days. The first time we got about 7 inches or rain overnight and this time we got 7-8 inches in about 2 hours. When the sewer backs up, its all storm water so at least its not sewage. The end result is around 5" of water in the basement. Once they open up all of the sewers, it all drains out within a half hour. I also have a fair amount of water coming in through the walls due to the water flooding in the street and having it come almost all the way up to the house.

Right now there is a main floor drain with another line running to it from the drain tile. The drain tile is from 1948, so its pretty much useless at this point. It gets to the point where there is a small drill hole in the block about 6" off the basement floor and the water shoots out like a stream during one of these heavy rains.

I would put a backflow valve in the main line, but the problem is that its about 4 feet under the slab so it would require a lot of work and its a duplex. Being a rental property, everyone just flushes everything and I dont want to have to rely on the flapper actually closing in order to save the basement.

I would just put a flood guard valve in the floor drain, but Im a little worried about the amount of pressure that would build up.

So let me know if this will work.

Replace floor drain
Put T in the line just below the floor drain.
Put a flood guard valve above the outlet on the T
Run the T with a 3" line to a sump pump in the corner
Also do a interior tube along the 2 walls that usually get water and run that into the sump
Run the sump under the back yard into the parking slab in the alley

My thoughts were that this would prevent the sewer from backing up over onto the floor without building up pressure. It would just go in the the sump crock and get pumped out. Any of the water building up on the outside of the foundation would be taken care of by the new interior drainage tube.

So would this work? Is there something that is against code with this?

LateralConcepts 07-23-2010 06:06 PM

I would put a Clean Check in. They're easy to install outside of the house (minor excavation involved of course) but at least you're not breaking concrete. Once it's installed, they're easily serviceable from ground level.

http://www.cleancheck.com/

Tell the tenants don't flush anything but toilet paper! Better yet, put it in their lease that they're responsible if a blockage is caused by neglect or abuse. Consult and attorney first to make sure that's legal.

vetting 07-24-2010 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LateralConcepts (Post 474208)
I would put a Clean Check in. They're easy to install outside of the house (minor excavation involved of course) but at least you're not breaking concrete. Once it's installed, they're easily serviceable from ground level.

http://www.cleancheck.com/

Tell the tenants don't flush anything but toilet paper! Better yet, put it in their lease that they're responsible if a blockage is caused by neglect or abuse. Consult and attorney first to make sure that's legal.


I'm not objecting to putting a line in the lateral. However, I dont want to rely on it as the only defense. Also, there is no way I can hold tenants responsible because with 2 sets of tenants there is now way to determine who flushed what.

So can someone please comment on my original design?

jomama45 07-24-2010 01:29 PM

I think you're close with your thoughts, but here's what I typically see done here where I live. (It's required by local ordinance to install a sump crock at time of sale OR for any major building permit, to alleviate the excess sani. sewer water.)

The plumber will plug the draintile inlet in the existing floor drain with hydraulic cement.

A new crock is places into the basement, tied to the existing interior draintile, if present.

The new sump crock needs to be at least 1" above the floor by code here, so a minor flood won't send sewage into the sump crock.

Some kind of safe guard to prevent sewage back-up at the existing floor drain sounds like a good idea.



I'm guessing ou may be somewhere around Milwaukee? :whistling2:

vetting 07-24-2010 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jomama45 (Post 474555)
I think you're close with your thoughts, but here's what I typically see done here where I live. (It's required by local ordinance to install a sump crock at time of sale OR for any major building permit, to alleviate the excess sani. sewer water.)

The plumber will plug the draintile inlet in the existing floor drain with hydraulic cement.

A new crock is places into the basement, tied to the existing interior draintile, if present.

The new sump crock needs to be at least 1" above the floor by code here, so a minor flood won't send sewage into the sump crock.

Some kind of safe guard to prevent sewage back-up at the existing floor drain sounds like a good idea.



I'm guessing ou may be somewhere around Milwaukee? :whistling2:

Yep in Milwaukee :)

I think everyone is going to revolt pretty soon after getting backups 3-4 times in the last 2 years.

jomama45 07-24-2010 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vetting (Post 474560)
Yep in Milwaukee :)

I think everyone is going to revolt pretty soon after getting backups 3-4 times in the last 2 years.


I feel for you, honestly.

One of my sisters lives on the West side, and is going through the same thing as you. Second time in a week, third in as little as 2 years. Completely unacceptable IMO. It would be one thing if there was very minor back-ups every few years, in differnet areas, but the fact that they're still dumping millions of gallons of "blended" sewage into the lake is ridiculous.

Good luck, but I think you may be lucky enough to find interior draintile, or at least be able to intersect the "webbed" tile going to the drain currently.

vetting 07-24-2010 01:40 PM

Is there a problem with having the excess pressure during a backflow flow into the crock to be pumped out? I want to have the checkvalve in the drain, but I dont want all of the pressure blowing a pipe out under slab. I could also put in a smaller 2nd drain right by the main drain so that if the main drain is closed with the checkvalve, there is still a way for any excess floor water from the walls to flow in to sump.

vetting 07-24-2010 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jomama45 (Post 474564)
I feel for you, honestly.

One of my sisters lives on the West side, and is going through the same thing as you. Second time in a week, third in as little as 2 years. Completely unacceptable IMO. It would be one thing if there was very minor back-ups every few years, in differnet areas, but the fact that they're still dumping millions of gallons of "blended" sewage into the lake is ridiculous.

Good luck, but I think you may be lucky enough to find interior draintile, or at least be able to intersect the "webbed" tile going to the drain currently.

As part of the project I would be putting in new interior drain tile. I do have old drain tile, but with the amount of water that comes in through the walls, it obviously doesnt work anymore. I even have pressure relief holes drilled in a few spots in the block about 5 inches off the floor because so much water builds up.

jomama45 07-24-2010 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vetting (Post 474567)
Is there a problem with having the excess pressure during a backflow flow into the crock to be pumped out? I want to have the checkvalve in the drain, but I dont want all of the pressure blowing a pipe out under slab. I could also put in a smaller 2nd drain right by the main drain so that if the main drain is closed with the checkvalve, there is still a way for any excess floor water from the walls to flow in to sump.

Honesstly, I'm not a plumber, and only work with the storm water side in basements. I'm not sure about the issues with the back-up pressure, but I have a hard time seeing how any drain less than 1" below the highest point of the floor, tied to a crock that would pump the water onto the surface outside, could possibly be code compliant. MMSD is the only one allowed to contribute to that kind of pollution AFAIK. A local plumber would be your best bet at guiding you in this aspect. Maybe someone else here has a better grasp as well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vetting (Post 474570)
As part of the project I would be putting in new interior drain tile. I do have old drain tile, but with the amount of water that comes in through the walls, it obviously doesnt work anymore. I even have pressure relief holes drilled in a few spots in the block about 5 inches off the floor because so much water builds up.


Sounds like it could be exterior draintile, or even the bleeders, that are the problem. Be extremely cautious when removing large sections of the interior floor, as it's the only thing surely holding the walls on the footing laterally.

bochnak 07-29-2010 01:10 PM

I just joined and am looking at doing something similar:

http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/storm-...r-drain-77436/


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