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Old 07-03-2012, 04:37 PM   #16
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PLEASE tell me no plumber would do this!


As long as you are starting from scratch---use separate valves--

no need to have the sink shut down because the dishwashers failed.

That was the valve I was speaking of--but a valve near the cabinet bottom for the DW then another at 18 inches up for the faucet is best.

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Old 07-03-2012, 04:47 PM   #17
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Jeeze--I just did a google image search for a drawing of a properly piped kitchen sink--


No wonder you are confused---I looked at two pages of bad work--

Don't go there--if you do--post the link here for one of us to look at,
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Old 07-03-2012, 05:53 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oh'mike
Every water pipe with a shut off needs a 12" pipe with a cap installed vertically--to prevent a knocking sound when the water is shut off suddenly--

Someone here will post a picture as I have never figured out that process--

I'll see if I can find a link to a picture of an air chamber.


Don't know where you're at but where I am (Calgary, Alberta) we aren't allowed to install those air chambers. We have to install mechanical shock arrestors. It's silly, but I've seen inspectors fail guys because of it.

Check your local codes. It would be a shame to have to redo something as simple as that.
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Old 07-04-2012, 12:46 AM   #19
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Petros,

I see by your post, #15, that you plan on hard piping (copper lines) in for the DW. I don't understand why you are so insistent on having a single shut off for both lines. If the DW develops a leak then you'll need to shut off the water in order to repair and that means you'd shut the water off to the sink as well. That's why a real plumber would never do this the way you're looking to do this.

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Every water pipe with a shut off needs a 12" pipe with a cap installed vertically--to prevent a knocking sound when the water is shut off suddenly--
Not anymore Mike. The water hammer arrestor has replaced a job made air chamber, as they tend to fail over time and need replacement more frequently as compared to the arrestor.

Quote:
The air chamber can be any where in the line
Again, not quite true Mike. In order to be truly effective the arrestor needs to be as close as possible to the source of the water hammer, in this case the quick opening & closing dishwasher valves.

Here's a pic of an different sized arrestors.


Last edited by VIPlumber; 07-04-2012 at 12:49 AM.
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Old 07-04-2012, 01:38 AM   #20
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This is interesting. I just finished repiping my whole house... I have never heard of the air chamber. Is this a MUST? Everything has been working fine for the last 10 days or so since we switched over to my redone plumbing so now I'm confused. The plumber that worked on our house during escrow was an absolute idiot, and because it was a short sale, we ended up having to pay for a good portion of his moronic "fixes," which were actually never inspected as no permit was pulled, so I returned to the job sans pulling a permit because anything has to be better than 23 shark bites in the ceiling and walls, and a hodge podge of galv to pex to copper to galv to copper to pex to galv to pex to galv...

(FWIW, I am a big fan of valves all over the place. I tee'd off the main lines in the basement so we can independently shut off the downstairs bathroom, then I tee'd so we can shut off the second floor water if we needed to shut down the whole second floor, then I ran the supply lines up to the second floor and split them so I can shut down the master or the main bath seperately from one another. It has been awesome with all the work I have been doing around here to be able to isolate small zones and maintain everything else. Valves are cheap insurance that the toilet(s) can always flush no matter which faucet, dishwasher, etc. is being retooled.)
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Old 07-04-2012, 07:11 AM   #21
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this is very interesting- clearly there is no consensus on shut off valves. In this case local plumbers tell me to use one shut off valve for the hot line that would feed the sink and D/W. BUT I can see if the D/W had a problem and it took 3 days to get someone to fix it that would mean no hot water to kitchen sink for 3 days so that's a vote for two shuts offs.


if you would chime in to this and vote on 2 or 1 shut offs and why this could be interesting. let's see what the tally ends up being a majority for 1 or 2 shut offs on a hot line that will feed both sink and D/W
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Old 07-04-2012, 07:35 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VIPlumber View Post
Petros,

I see by your post, #15, that you plan on hard piping (copper lines) in for the DW. I don't understand why you are so insistent on having a single shut off for both lines. If the DW develops a leak then you'll need to shut off the water in order to repair and that means you'd shut the water off to the sink as well. That's why a real plumber would never do this the way you're looking to do this.



Not anymore Mike. The water hammer arrestor has replaced a job made air chamber, as they tend to fail over time and need replacement more frequently as compared to the arrestor.



Again, not quite true Mike. In order to be truly effective the arrestor needs to be as close as possible to the source of the water hammer, in this case the quick opening & closing dishwasher valves.

Here's a pic of an different sized arrestors.


Thanks for the update---I wonder if that is a new Canadian code ?
I'll have to check the codes here---dog gone--one more thing to pack into the parts box---

As to "any where in the line" we were talking about the 20" or so line from the cabinet bottom to the shut off on top--so I believe he will be fine.


Thanks---Alan--E Plumber--Lateral--Is this code here,too?
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Old 07-04-2012, 07:41 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by petros151 View Post
this is very interesting- clearly there is no consensus on shut off valves. In this case local plumbers tell me to use one shut off valve for the hot line that would feed the sink and D/W. BUT I can see if the D/W had a problem and it took 3 days to get someone to fix it that would mean no hot water to kitchen sink for 3 days so that's a vote for two shuts offs.


if you would chime in to this and vote on 2 or 1 shut offs and why this could be interesting. let's see what the tally ends up being a majority for 1 or 2 shut offs on a hot line that will feed both sink and D/W

The only time I see a shared shut off is in old work where a new fixture was added to an old system--

always think of servicing the house---It's the difference between an emergency call and simply twisting a valve and going back to the ball game--
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Old 07-04-2012, 07:49 AM   #24
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If you want old school, there is only one shutoff for the whole house. I tend to side with OurHouse, shutoffs are pretty cheap insurance that problem areas can be isolated with minimal impact on day to day activities. I'm also not a believer in gate valves, I've got everything finally changed to ball checks.
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Old 07-04-2012, 01:04 PM   #25
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Sweet. I was torn on which valves to use, and I went with ball valves all around. But can someone chime in on my air chamber question? (I shouldn't be too nervous, I guess, because there has been nothing of note in the 11 days or so since I switched over to the line set I ran, but since I never heard of the air chamber thing, I am curious if I need to get back in there and add something? (Good thing I left access panels I knew those could come in handy)
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Old 07-04-2012, 01:25 PM   #26
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I have never used one of these, I do not have a relief expansion tank when I got the house there was non installed so this little thing in the pic seems like a simple way to be safe, you just install right along the hot water line to the D/W at least that's what it looks like you do... anyone use this b4 ?
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Old 07-04-2012, 01:43 PM   #27
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What is the purpose of it, though? I mean, I get that it can be a relief, but what makes a likelihood that one would get higher than acceptable pressure in the line? I have mostly pex in my new piping, and I have read great articles about how it expands beautifully and can even survive freezing, not that I'm all that worried about freezing pipes because they are so easy to prevent.
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Old 07-04-2012, 03:24 PM   #28
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Quote:
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What is the purpose of it, though? I mean, I get that it can be a relief, but what makes a likelihood that one would get higher than acceptable pressure in the line? I have mostly pex in my new piping, and I have read great articles about how it expands beautifully and can even survive freezing, not that I'm all that worried about freezing pipes because they are so easy to prevent.
well from what I understand it absorbs the shock of the fast valve shutoffs from a D/W and blocks the hammer effect. Since I do not have an expansion tank (yet) and everything I have is copper (old house) I figured why not throw one of these inline with the D/W flex tube just in case it "would" have knocked without one.
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Old 07-04-2012, 03:37 PM   #29
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Quote:
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What is the purpose of it, though? I mean, I get that it can be a relief, but what makes a likelihood that one would get higher than acceptable pressure in the line? I have mostly pex in my new piping, and I have read great articles about how it expands beautifully and can even survive freezing, not that I'm all that worried about freezing pipes because they are so easy to prevent.
Here's a good read on arrester's
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Old 07-04-2012, 04:08 PM   #30
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Here's a good read on arrester's
this is a good read indeed so from what they say a central expansion tank is not going to do the trick. Anyone have a comment on that?

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