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Old 02-18-2010, 05:34 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by dawktah View Post
Hello!

I recently purchased a home on a well. This is a completely new concept to me. This is the current configuration as fas as I know. The well pump is a Aermotor Series T 12gpm at a depth of 40 feet. The copper pipe entering the house is 3/4" and the house is ran in mostly 3/4" copper. The pressurizer tank is a WaterAce RPT 86. The pressure settings are somewhere between 30/50 and 40/60. I have installed a water softener, whole whole pre-filter and the whole house filtration system. I also have already installed Rinnai tankless water heaters so we can draw down the pressure tank and keep taking a hot shower. The future Master Suite remodel we are hoping to do the Kohler DTV II shower. The valve is rated at 21 gpm at 45 psi.

In order to deliver the 21 gpm at 45 psi I will need to replace the well pump. What roughly should be new specs in a theoretical world or which one if you know? I realize I have only 3/4" pipe which has a maximum flow of 15 gpm but will put in water hammer arrestors. Although this is the showers full capacity I doubt my wife and I will use it at full capacity but maybe once or twice a week, unless I have a really bad day. If even then it will be a short duration during the shower. Most of the time we will use a single conventional shower head to take daily showers. EDIT: The DTV II flows water through all the shower heads and body sprays till water reaches pre-set temp so this will happen everyday . The tankless water heaters are in the basement directly below the planned shower.

I have not chosen the body sprays or watertiles (as they call them) yet. This may alter the maximum gpm to a slightly lower number. I also need to know what size drain you should use to handle 21 gpm flow?

I have plenty of time to gather different configuration ideas,as I am working on the kitchen right now. To save expense keeping what we have as far as pressure tank goes would be preferred. I also would like to install a sprinkler system so having the 25gpm would be good in that regard. The well draw down when it was drilled was 75 gpm in 2003.

  1. How long should a well pump run, if its properly sized can it run 30-40 minutes?
  2. What size drain should I tie into the current drain, I'll have to measure current line out, hopefully this doesn't kill the DTV II?
  3. Which pump should I upgrade to?
  4. I don't know what size pipe runs from pump to the entry into the house, should I plan to increase it to 1" or 1-1/4" all the way through the filtration system up to the 3/4 connection on water heaters? Increasing the pipe I may need to hire someone so we are not without water as long as it may take me.
  5. EDIT: Is this going to require pipe increase?
Thanks!




Chris
21 GPM and a constant pressure is not average.

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Old 02-18-2010, 06:30 PM   #62
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With the CSV you can have something special, for a lot less money than a VFD or a big tank. Because these days any flow rate you want with constant pressure is normal.

There is no way to properly size a pump and tank for these type systems. This person needs 21 GPM for a new shower, probably has varied irrigation demands, then there are other small demands of a house. In the old days, sizing a pump to match the only high demand in the system, which may be a 21 GPM irrigation system, then sizing a tank large enough to handle all the small intermittent demands was fine. Now we have 21 GPM showers, 15 GPM sprinklers, 3 GPM drip system, and maybe a heat pump with several size zones, as well as the rest of the house, all on one pump system. Big pressure tanks can’t make this work, and that is why people are going for modern type pump systems that can vary the flow to match the need.

A CSV and a small tank can handle all these different demands, cost less than a big pressure tank, and works better than any of the variable speed pump systems.

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Old 02-18-2010, 06:42 PM   #63
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I have been installing pump and tank systems for 30 odd years now. Quite a few for demands far in excess of 21 gpm in commercial locations. All he needs to do is go to the Goulds web site and use their sizing charts for both the pump and the tank.

On another note. I wish you all would leave your baggage at the door and stick to constructive comments and answers to the OP questions. The constant bickering gets old fast and does nothing but muddy up the thread. Why don't you guys start a forum where you can all insult, belittle and berate each other and get it over with. Either that or file a lawsuit and be done with it.
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Old 02-18-2010, 07:20 PM   #64
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With the CSV you can have something special, for a lot less money than a VFD or a big tank. Because these days any flow rate you want with constant pressure is normal.

There is no way to properly size a pump and tank for these type systems. This person needs 21 GPM for a new shower, probably has varied irrigation demands, then there are other small demands of a house. In the old days, sizing a pump to match the only high demand in the system, which may be a 21 GPM irrigation system, then sizing a tank large enough to handle all the small intermittent demands was fine. Now we have 21 GPM showers, 15 GPM sprinklers, 3 GPM drip system, and maybe a heat pump with several size zones, as well as the rest of the house, all on one pump system. Big pressure tanks canít make this work, and that is why people are going for modern type pump systems that can vary the flow to match the need.

A CSV and a small tank can handle all these different demands, cost less than a big pressure tank, and works better than any of the variable speed pump systems.

The Internet is a wonderful thing. It educates people about all the things that some drillers are trying to keep secret, so they can keep pulling the wool over their customers eyes. Many people can now DIY their own pump system and save lots of money. Others can at least inform themselves about pump systems, so when the driller says you can only have this particular system, they know there are other options available.
Agreed!!!
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Old 02-18-2010, 07:21 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by NHMaster View Post
I have been installing pump and tank systems for 30 odd years now. Quite a few for demands far in excess of 21 gpm in commercial locations. All he needs to do is go to the Goulds web site and use their sizing charts for both the pump and the tank.

On another note. I wish you all would leave your baggage at the door and stick to constructive comments and answers to the OP questions. The constant bickering gets old fast and does nothing but muddy up the thread. Why don't you guys start a forum where you can all insult, belittle and berate each other and get it over with. Either that or file a lawsuit and be done with it.
"Commercial" is the word here. This was about a private home.
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Old 02-18-2010, 07:26 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by NHMaster View Post
I have been installing pump and tank systems for 30 odd years now. Quite a few for demands far in excess of 21 gpm in commercial locations. All he needs to do is go to the Goulds web site and use their sizing charts for both the pump and the tank.
Then the pump can cycle itself to death, everyone in the building is having to put up with 20 PSI swings in pressure, water hammer happens every time the pump starts or stops, and the list goes on and on. These are problems that people have been trying to solve for years. You may not think these things have been much of a problem, but your customers do. You may also think you know what is best for the customer but, it may not be what the customer wants. If you don’t give them what they want, they will get on the Internet and find someone who will.

I never throw the first punch but, I am not one to sit back and take a beating for no reason either.

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2nd warning

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Old 02-18-2010, 07:33 PM   #67
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If the system is not properly sized those problems can occur yes. Properly sized the system will last for many many years. I have had the same goulds pump and tank in my own home for almost 20 years now, or since I built the place. As for 20 lb pressure swings, again, properly sized that's not a problem either.

I have never had a customer complain about any water pump, tank or system I have installed. Nor have I had any customer that I can recall who's pump died prematurely with the exception of a small handfull of warranty problems over the years. On the other hand though, I have no problem with a CSV system. They do what they are advertised to do.
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Old 02-18-2010, 07:46 PM   #68
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If the system is not properly sized those problems can occur yes. Properly sized the system will last for many many years. I have had the same goulds pump and tank in my own home for almost 20 years now, or since I built the place. As for 20 lb pressure swings, again, properly sized that's not a problem either.
Just so I understand right.

If I am at your home and washing dishes, someone flushes the toilet the washer starts to draw water and the lawn irrigation comes on. I would never see any change in water pressure at that sink???
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Old 02-18-2010, 08:25 PM   #69
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The piping in my house is sized correctly for the demand, so is the pump and the well tank. The tubs and showers have pressure balanced valves on them so the short answer is no the long answer is noooooooooooooo
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:22 PM   #70
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Sorry, I should rephrase the question, I need something special and it appeared to be a the SQE, however after hearing and reading more info its not a good choice. I wouldn't want to use condoms with this high a failure rate. My desire is for relatively high pressure and high flow rate. SQE in concept would do that. CSV can do that too if its included in a well system that can produce the flow rate. That is my understanding.

When I called the local dealer for the SQE, he was all 'tingly" when I mentioned the SQE, I can only imagine how much I would have been quoted for the system. Thing is he was proud to sell it, but obviously the product has some issues. Is that being fair? Warranties sometimes are useless after you read the fine print. Parts covered but labor isn't type of things...

I am now focused on determining if this well can produce 21 gpm. If it doesn't then what I have will have to work and the shower and lawn sprinkler system is dead.
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Old 02-18-2010, 09:24 PM   #71
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Dawkta. Everyone here is talking variable speed pumps and now CSV's, but 99% of all systems installed out there are good old tank and pump systems. Trouble free, properly sized work for years and considerably less money to install.
Agreed but no one for variable speed mentioned the failure rate and problems of variable speed either...

Last edited by ChrisDIY; 02-18-2010 at 09:26 PM.
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Old 02-18-2010, 11:07 PM   #72
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Agreed but no one for variable speed mentioned the failure rate and problems of variable speed either...
I did not because I have never had a problem. But, I went to a school and have the right equipment.

That is why I said I did not think you could install it, that some drillers can't.
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Old 02-18-2010, 11:09 PM   #73
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Buy, yes. Install it. Not likely. Many drillers don't try them.

A 40 foot well likely has a screen, at least it would around here. Setting any pump in the screen is touchy.
Remenber this???
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Old 02-19-2010, 08:56 AM   #74
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I have noticed that the SQE seems to last longer in Michigan than most other places. I don't think this is because of the installation expertise. I think it is because the water is colder, the static level is more shallow, and there is not much external use like drip systems and heat pumps. In areas where the water is not as cold, the static level is deeper, and there are many external uses of water like evap coolers and drip systems, they have a lot of problems.
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:51 AM   #75
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I have noticed that the SQE seems to last longer in Michigan than most other places. I don't think this is because of the installation expertise. I think it is because the water is colder, the static level is more shallow, and there is not much external use like drip systems and heat pumps. In areas where the water is not as cold, the static level is deeper, and there are many external uses of water like evap coolers and drip systems, they have a lot of problems.
The static in Michigan is just like the water wells. All over the charts.

Some wells flow "0" static.

Mine is 100 foot in a 320 foot well.

Some much farther north, 300 foot yep, the wells are 700 foot.

If you want to see logs, I will post all you want.

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