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Old 06-24-2014, 06:39 AM   #1
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Mounting Sillcocks


Long time lurker, first time poster. I purchased my first house a few weeks ago so for the first time I care about doing stuff to code and for long term durability not just rigging it to work until the apartment complex "repair team" eventually responds to my SOS 3 weeks later.

Anyway, I have three sillcocks on the house, all broken. One has no water supply, one the handle is snapped off, and one leaks out the top backflow vent. Frankly, I'm just going to replace all three if I have to get in that crawlspace even once more to do even one of them, and possibly add a 4th to the only side of the house that does not have water access - already found out how annoying that is, decent sized house so it's a bit of a walk.

I've read and read and read and come up with these two questions:

1. Both my wife and I are tall so everything gets mounted up higher than you would otherwise see (about 6" or so) - hand rails, light switches, door knobs, etc. Currently they are about 12" above grade. Is there a maximum height a sillcock should be above grade or a minimum height they should be below the top of the foundation? I do realize that I could drill through the vinyl siding and the walls and mount them literally eye height, but this will not work with 12" long sillcocks. On the two we mount hoses to, the sillcocks have a short "jumper hose" about 5 feet long to a post driven in the ground with a hose reel at reasonable height, works pretty good but sometimes you still want to turn the sillcock off completely not just the hose so the higher I can bring it the more I save both of our backs. As far as I can read online, there is no minimum from top of foundation just go down far enough I don't crack the blocks when I drill it.

2. Minimum spec distance from a corner? All are about 3' from the corner of the house and would make hoses more usable if they were closer to the actual corner itself. I would assume just stay far away from the corner to still give myself working room on the inside to hook up piping. What do use to seal up the old holes? Is a tube of concrete adhesive on a caulk gun sufficient or do I need to research mortar for a 1" hole?

3. Angle. It seems very important to downward slight angle (from high point outside house to low point inside crawlspace) the sillcock so it drains. From that point though, does the pvc need to continue in a downward trend? I ask because I'm a very tall guy in a very short crawlspace and everything is hanging down in the way. I was busy cleaning out the crawlspace yesterday (why the hell do people use it as a landfill???), and thinking that if I simply started going around and mounting pipes and wires better I would buy myself another 6" to crawl relatively comfortably instead of dragging myself across the dirt floor on my belly. I would reason that I just need to keep the ability to drain the sillcock, yes? As long as the piping allows for that, I can mount any angle I wish (I'd like to either drill the joists and run it through for a super secure/safe from bumping mount or at least mount to the bottom of the joists with U shaped clamps, not hanging down sometimes 10" in some places. Sealing the holes? HD guy recommended Great Stuff. I picked one that read appropriate for the size of the hole I'm using. Seems to be what's in there now too providing leak free seal. I contemplated using that concrete adhesive stuff but if that sillcock ever goes bad I think I'll have to jackhammer it out.

Thanks for any and all help you can offer to my long winded questions. Sending responses to my phone I'll be over there today if pictures of anything would help, actually found a half decent way to get light down there. I think if I can tackle 10 or so square feet of it at a time I should be able to get that crawlspace funcitonal/easy to work on in under a year and not the complete dreadful nightmare it is now.

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Old 06-24-2014, 09:10 AM   #2
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Mounting Sillcocks


Usually, hose bibs are run through the rim or bands. Use a siding block. Many types available. You can go closer to corners keep one bay space or approx 16" away.

Insulate pipe from freezing and put in another shut off in the conditioned part of your basement. I would try and angle the pipe down to the outside to drain the pipe.
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Old 06-24-2014, 09:16 AM   #3
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Mounting Sillcocks


The way your suggesting to do it would be a nightmare to do, Moving them up into the wall cavity will require opening up the wall, removing some siding, adding siding blocks, having a bunch of patched up holes where it used to be, anytime one needs to be replaced again the wall would have to be opened up again unless you added an ugly access panel in the wall.
That short extension and a valve mounted to the post is the way to go.
PS, PVC should not be used inside a home for pressure lines.
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Old 06-24-2014, 06:58 PM   #4
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Mounting Sillcocks


Don't use PVC its not approved for indoor use in 35 states. Use copper cpvc or pex.
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Old 06-24-2014, 10:15 PM   #5
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Mounting Sillcocks


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Don't use PVC its not approved for indoor use in 35 states. Use copper cpvc or pex.
I'm using CPVC, sorry if I didn't clarify. Not a PEX fan, sorry if that offends anyone's religion. I decided just to leave the sillcocks in the foundation slab, just move them as high as possible (about 3" from the top) and closer to the corners. I checked from the inside to make sure I would not run into any clearance issues with the new location and drilled 1" masonry bit. I had to open the holes up slightly afterwards by wiggling the bit (interesting the manufacturer put a larger nut end on requiring this). Which leaves me with the following questions:

1. What do I use to seal the hole around the sillcock? Great Stuff or something like Concrete adhesive?

2. What do I use to seal the old holes permanently? One of them is significantly larger than the 1" necessary, I think someone made an oops.

3. What do you think of this concept drawing? I already have the holes drilled for new sillcocks on a slight downward angle but I would like to raise the overall height of CPVC piping as high as possible within the crawlspace. Pink is straight 3/4 CPVC, blue is fittings (elbows etc) how they slip over. In this configuration, I am able to retain a downward slope away from the sillcock to drain it, yet also keep the rest of the CPVC as tight to the joists as possible to save my knees and back. The plan would be to turn on the sillcocks, then shut off the water supply at the existing shutoffs, then put a bucket under the open end of "new valve" and open it, draining what is left between sillcock and shutoff valve. The drawing is not nearly to scale, I suck at computers. There is approximately 12" beneath the open end of the drain and ground, enough for a standard pale. I could then mount the CPVC securely to the joists with the plastic U shaped retainers every 3 joists or so. I could get really fancy and use my right angle drill and 1" hole saw or bit and drill the joists and run the CVPC through them, but I'm not sure I like the idea of weakening one of the most key structural pieces in a house built in 1955 - and I probably triple my total project time. Since the joists would still be there, that would only buy me 3/4" more head room (thickness of CPVC).

i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv245/cjr2003firefly2/new/Untitled.png

could someone please post that as an image, I can't post links until 5 posts. Crawlspace access is by 2x2 floor cut-out, and unfortunately is very, very far away from all plumbing. So getting down there once a year is mandatory, which is why I'm cleaning out bigtime.
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Old 06-25-2014, 04:56 AM   #6
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Mounting Sillcocks


If frost / freeze proof cocks are being installed I can't see the purpose of installing them as pictured.
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Old 06-25-2014, 06:40 AM   #7
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Mounting Sillcocks


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If frost / freeze proof cocks are being installed I can't see the purpose of installing them as pictured.
Every remotely technical installation I have seen suggests the hole through the foundation needs to be drilled at a downward slope (high point exterior, low point interior) to drain the sillcock after you close the shut off valve for winter. Nowhere does it suggest an angle but I went with 2.00 degrees on my digital angle gauge because I remembered gutters are installed with a similar target and they flow like a river that way.

As you can see in the picture, I have about 30 inches in most places in my crawlspace, leaving me somewhere between belly crawl and normal hands and knees in most places at my height (providing no plumbing is there). As the piping is currently installed, level to maintain the ability of the sillcock to drain, that takes away another 12" or so in some places and makes for

1. incredibly ugly and unprofessional, loose installation
2. me on full belly army crawl, my life a complete hell instead of only partial hell.

The goal of the picture is to allow me to mount the CPVC tubing securely in case it gets bumped while I'm down there to the joists and as high as possible while still allowing me to drain the sillcock (even level, I think most of the distance of about 10' from the main existing shutoff to my new drain should flow out as well, though I could slope it very slightly). Realistically based on where the existing sillcock shut off valves are now, I'm going to have to go down there once every year to turn them on and once to turn them off anyway.
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Old 06-25-2014, 08:05 AM   #8
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Mounting Sillcocks


If these are frost free hose bibs, your angle is the wrong direction. They are designed to be self draining when you turn them off.
Do you have another valve on the line to stop the water supply to the hose bib?

You may already addressed this, but why drill the concrete and not the rim joist?
Anchoring the bib in concrete is not easy.

For the old holes, I'd use spray foam- fill the back third of the hole with foam, then use a concrete product like "water plug" to cap off the rest of the hole.

Also, wrap the copper hose bib with a good layer of protective tape so it does not contact the concrete.

Here is your original image
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Old 06-25-2014, 08:51 AM   #9
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Mounting Sillcocks


A frost free bib will drain when level or even slightly up. They do not need to drip dry to prevent breaking in freezing temperatures. If angled, slightly down would be my choice.

I'm not seeing the purpose of re - entering the crawl space twice annually or having the drain valve pictured.

Install them with 3-4 wraps of Teflon tape so they can be easily removed in the future if need be without going into the crawl. I never liked those spaces either.

If screwing into female plastic fittings, remember with taped threads female fittings can be cracked so caution is advised on torque. I don't use them anymore unless absolutely necessary, but if I must they get a stainless worm screw clamp for backup unless they are schedule xxx heavy as fittings are on some well pressure tanks.
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Old 06-25-2014, 08:07 PM   #10
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If these are frost free hose bibs, your angle is the wrong direction. They are designed to be self draining when you turn them off.
Do you have another valve on the line to stop the water supply to the hose bib?

You may already addressed this, but why drill the concrete and not the rim joist?
Anchoring the bib in concrete is not easy.

For the old holes, I'd use spray foam- fill the back third of the hole with foam, them use a concrete product like "water plug" t cap off the rest of the hole.

Also, wrap the copper hose bib with a good layer of protective tape so it does not contact the concrete.

Here is your original image
Thanks for the image. Where I got confused is "mounted slightly up" or slightly down. That depends on which orientation you are viewing. In the picture I think it's too light to see but to the far left of the pink the existing shut off is (one per sillcock).

Rim joist? Is this the first big piece of wood that sits directly on the concrete block foundation (the sill)? Do I have those terms right? If so, that's because (1) it's sided and (2) I have poor access to that area from crawlspace as compared to the concrete block sill area.

I secured the sillcocks with two tap-con screws of 3" length. I fabricated an aluminum plate that the sillcock mounts to of 3/16" thickness so the two tap cons are about 6" apart. Part of wanting to do the entire sillcock replacement and relocation was really poor existing mounting (loose).

Being that I already have the holes drilled due to my mis-interpretation of angles, are there going to be any PROBLEMS with how I have the CPVC planned (not installed yet). I wonder if I pull the sillcock out and slot the hole if I could tilt them the opposite way?

Water plug?

albionconcrete.co.uk/construction-chemicals/water-leak-plug.html
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Old 06-25-2014, 08:22 PM   #11
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Mounting Sillcocks


Still can't post pictures even at 5 posts.

Here is an edited version of the sillcock mounting (if I can slot the hole and tilt it). Again, the goal is to keep the long spans of line as tight and neat up on the joists as possible to give me crawl room. So at end of season I would go into crawl space, shut off shut off valves, pack up hoses and leave sillcocks in open position, draining sillcock and tube between sillcock and shutoff valve?

i688.photobucket.com/albums/vv245/cjr2003firefly2/new/Untitled-1.png

What is an optimal angle to shoot for? Is my 2.00 good or should I go steeper? For clarification, the hose attaching end of the sillcock should be lower? If expandable foam is good for the first part of plugging old holes, is it also acceptable for sealing around the shaft of the new sillcock being installed (that's how it is on house now)?
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Old 06-25-2014, 08:26 PM   #12
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Is this an acceptable alternative to water plug? I am looking for a fast-setting concrete repair mortar? This is locally available to me. Any special instructions or pro install suggestions other than what comes on the box/barrel? I am assuming that since this is above grade, repairs to holes are more of a heat loss/outside aesthetics/animal intrusion issue than a structural or water intrusion issue like they would be below grade?

homedepot.com/p/Quikrete-20-lb-Fast-Set-Repair-Mortar-124120/100318469
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Old 06-25-2014, 08:26 PM   #13
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Mounting Sillcocks


My response in bold type
Quote:
Originally Posted by 95PGTTech View Post
Thanks for the image. Where I got confused is "mounted slightly up" or slightly down. That depends on which orientation you are viewing. In the picture I think it's too light to see but to the far left of the pink the existing shut off is (one per sillcock).I didn't see that

Rim joist? Is this the first big piece of wood that sits directly on the concrete block foundation (the sill)? Do I have those terms right? If so, that's because (1) it's sided and (2) I have poor access to that area from crawlspace as compared to the concrete block sill area.Going from the bottom up is the block, sitting on that is the sill plate, followed with the rim joist-it forms the rim of the floor

I secured the sillcocks with two tap-con screws of 3" length. I fabricated an aluminum plate that the sillcock mounts to of 3/16" thickness so the two tap cons are about 6" apart. Part of wanting to do the entire sillcock replacement and relocation was really poor existing mounting (loose).sounds like a good plan

Being that I already have the holes drilled due to my mis-interpretation of angles, are there going to be any PROBLEMS with how I have the CPVC planned (not installed yet). I wonder if I pull the sillcock out and slot the hole if I could tilt them the opposite way?You could try to slot it to at least level- might take some work.

Water plug?

albionconcrete.co.uk/construction-chemicals/water-leak-plug.htmlThats the stuff. I suggested it because it's easy to pack in the holes and won't run out a horizontal hole, but you have only a couple minutes to use it before it hardens so mix small patches. There are other products available too
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Old 06-26-2014, 08:42 PM   #14
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Trying to do the picture as an attachment. This is my revised idea to finish up tomorrow.
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Old 06-26-2014, 09:23 PM   #15
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Well now that I can finally get pictures up, here's one of the plates I made in case anyone wants to copy them. 3/16" aluminum plate I had sitting around, used the gasket that comes with the sillcock as a template to drill with a hole saw the center hole and used 1/4" self tapping screws to mount to the plate. 1/4" drill bit made holes for the tapcons. I think I have 1/2 hour into each by the time I deburr them, I bill fabrication at $80/hr. These retail for about 18 each plus shipping online but I needed them NOW. I took a few minutes to figure out what I wanted the perimeter of the plate to look like and saw some 2 bolt exhaust flange gaskets sitting around and...bam...

Plenty of ways you can fancy this up if you like. Change the plate shape, have it water jet cut or CNC, powdercoat it. Instead of self-tappers phsycially tap the plate and use stainless allen-headed bolts, etc. If for some reason you felt you needed really secure mounting, could also just use 4 tapcons.
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