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-   -   MOEN bathtub faucet: stuck open (http://www.diychatroom.com/f7/moen-bathtub-faucet-stuck-open-166541/)

romegta 12-15-2012 04:08 PM

MOEN bathtub faucet: stuck open
 
4 Attachment(s)
I have a MOEN faucet on my master bathtub mounted to deck of tub, three posts (Cold, Faucet, Hot). The hot valve now will not close - water streams out at more than a trickle when valve is turned off. (NOT just a drip leak)

My questions are:
1) I cannot access the plumbing from deck of tub; I will have to remove tile to try and gain access to plumbing (see pictures)... CORRECT? NO! VALVE CAN BE REPLACED WITHOUT REMOVING TILE.
2) What are the chances there is a ball valve on the water that will stop flow to just the tub - so we can buy some time and live with hot water in the house sans the bathtub? MY HOUSE IS A TRACK HOME AND I'M TOLD MOST LIKELY THERE IS NO VALVE TO KILL JUST THE WATER TO THE BATHTUB. WE HAVE LIVED WITHOUT HOT WATER NOW FOR 3 DAYS AS MY ONLY VALVE IS AT THE WATER HEATER.
3) IS IT POSSIBLE to remove the valve without gaining access to under the deck??? (see pictures) <--THIS IS THE RIGHT THING. THE MOEN VALVES ARE DESIGNED TO BE REPLACED.

Any feedback would be very helpful, thank you...

EDIT: I found a diagram indicating the valve is removable... although mine is not coming out easily. Trying vinegar to break mineral deposits.
EDIT #2: I bought two replacement cartridges (one from Lowe's, one from Home Depot); they are slightly different with different valve body diameter and different size holes at bottom of valve and on side. I will have to remove the current valve to know which one to use for sure I guess. AS IT TURNS OUT, MOEN STATES THAT THE "ROMAN-TUB" VALVES ARE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT DIAMETER THAN THE SINK VALVE; SHE TOLD ME THE 1224 MOST LIKELY WON'T WORK ON MY TUB. (I WON'T KNOW FOR SURE UNTIL I GET THIS VALVE OUT.)

oh'mike 12-15-2012 04:12 PM

That valve can be repaired from the top without having to mess up your tile----

The cartridge can be pulled out and replaced---It's been a while since I serviced one of those---if someone else doesn't give you instructions---I'll wrack my brain and get you instructions----

romegta 12-15-2012 04:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oh'mike (Post 1073600)
That valve can be repaired from the top without having to mess up your tile----

The cartridge can be pulled out and replaced---It's been a while since I serviced one of those---if someone else doesn't give you instructions---I'll wrack my brain and get you instructions----

That would be absolutely awesome if I can access that valve without removing tile (obviously)... the valve is deeply recessed into the brass colar - I've removed the nylon "extension" posts that comes up and the handles mount to. But the valve itself is a good 2-3 inches into the sleeve. I'm trying to find any instructions that talk about how it is removed. (NOTE: I added a diagram to my attachments - seen above now)

oh'mike 12-15-2012 04:45 PM

Yep----I believe all you need to do is turn off the water at the main----remove that silver nut and pull out the cartridge----clean up the valve body--lube it and install a new cartridge---

Let's see what one of the plumbers has to say----It's been a while since I did one of those---

romegta 12-15-2012 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oh'mike (Post 1073620)
Yep----I believe all you need to do is turn off the water at the main----remove that silver nut and pull out the cartridge----clean up the valve body--lube it and install a new cartridge---

Let's see what one of the plumbers has to say----It's been a while since I did one of those---

Moen states there's a tool (part #14272) that I need to remove a nut that holds the valve in; I don't see a nut down in the sleeve. But there must be one. Lowe's and Home Depot didn't have that Moen tool - and now the plumbing parts suppliers won't be open Sunday. <grrrrrrr!!>

EDIT: The 14272 nut tool was necessary; the nut holding my valve is white nylon so it looks like it's part of the valve - but it's a nut that screws down the long sleeve and holds the valve in. Getting the valve out is another matter though... but at least the nut is removed.

TheEplumber 12-15-2012 07:49 PM

I haven't changed that cartridge in a long time. Not sure about that tool either. But if you get one, you might consider getting a cartridge puller too.

romegta 12-17-2012 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheEplumber (Post 1073719)
I haven't changed that cartridge in a long time. Not sure about that tool either. But if you get one, you might consider getting a cartridge puller too.

Those words are echo'ing now in my head.

Went to my plumbing shop this morning; they had the Moen nut tool #14272 waiting for me there (I had sent an email Saturday evening). Thought I was good to go, but the valve is not just pulling out easily. The valve is a good 3" down into the sleeve and there's not much room to work with this. I'm currently trying to use the nylon extension to grab the valve and remove it, but the $30 tool (added picture above) might have been the smart purchase in hindsight... I'm just really on a budget so I was hesitant.

I'm going to try sending dishsoap as a lubricant down the shaft to see if that doesn't help me out - otherwise I'm going to have to drive 30 minutes back to the plumbing shop and grab that tool. <grrrrrrr> I spoke to the two guys there and they thought this valve should come out quasi-easily with just long needle nose pliers; but so far it seems to be pretty stubborn. This valve could be 12 years old and our water is pretty hard and so minerals might be working against me...

Any other ideas besides dishsoap? Thanks. (MOEN SUGGESTED VINEGAR.)

EDIT: Moen themselves mentioned to me try using "vinegar" to break any minerals. Secondly, the tool (t-handle valve puller) that I added a picture of above, Moen is telling me that's an after market. The woman I spoke to at Moen stated she doesn't think that will work on my valve. Lastly, the plumbing shop gave me a Valve cartridge 1224 but she states those are cartridges for dual handle sink faucets; the tub will use a different diameter valve (I think she said 1248) - but I won't know for sure until I can get the valve out. I sure hope the vinegar works because that valve doesn't feel like it's coming out - and the nylon makes it very difficult to grab it and pull it out; ESPECIALLY 1.5" recessed into the brass sleeve. <sigh>

Heading to the hardware store while the vinegar soaks on the valve/minerals. I'm going to try and get a longer screw from the "extension" so that I can put a screw directly into the valve stem and use pliers to pull on it directly.

raylo32 12-17-2012 12:47 PM

Glad to see this thread. Not glad the OP has a leak but I have the exact same setup (tile surround, no shut off valves) on my tub so now I know how to repair it if/when the time comes.

romegta 12-17-2012 04:23 PM

:thumbup:
CONCLUSION: My valve did not easily pull out AT ALL. I tried the vinegar but I don't think it was necessary, my valve showed ZERO signs of any mineral build up - which is not surprising, the valve is <12 years old. HOWEVER, when I finally got the valve to break loose and come up - some metal fragments (solder slag?) came up too. I SUSPECT that these metal pieces got lodged into the valve, making it malfunction - AND - also acted like a wedge which is why my valve didn't just pull straight out.

I ended up putting a #10x2" screw into the top of the valve (where the nylon extension normally screws in) and I pulled with pliers; when that didn't work, I got my hammer and used the claw (see picture above). You probably won't need to do that as I think stray material was the cause of ALL OF THIS for me.

Regardless, I hope this helps someone out there. I'm not a plumber, this was a new experience for me, the new valve is in and working fine and I think I'm good to go.

NOTE: Most hardware stores have the 1224 valve; that is for the sinks not the roman tubs. The tub valve is slightly larger diameter, I believe part #1248

TheEplumber 12-17-2012 04:31 PM

Moen cartridges are notorious for sticking. I highly recommend using a puller. There are a couple of threads here discussing cartridge removal when it actually breaks inside the valve body- the inner core comes out but the outer piece has adhered to the body- not a good scenario.:mad:

romegta 12-17-2012 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheEplumber (Post 1074717)
Moen cartridges are notorious for sticking. I highly recommend using a puller. There are a couple of threads here discussing cartridge removal when it actually breaks inside the valve body- the inner core comes out but the outer piece has adhered to the body- not a good scenario.:mad:

I was so scared of the valve breaking apart, it's where all my trepidation came from. However, in regards to using a puller - I purchased two different pullers and found a third. Because of the depth the valve was in the sleeve, the Moen puller wouldn't work. I found a second puller (aftermarket) and the bolt reached the valve stem, but I could not get a good grab so that puller was pointless and has to be returned. The long T-handle puller I found on Amazon.com I'm pretty sure is not for this nylon style valve; but I can't be sure - I couldn't see how it "attaches" to the stem of the valve. So while others might find a puller that works in this scenario (I remain skeptical), the pullers I bought did not work.

I still believe the debris is what was causing my valve to stick (and malfunction) - but maybe not. I'll never know for sure. I was going to tackle the cold water valve too, but I don't think it's necessary... plus Lowe's had no more of the bigger replacement valves. So as they say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Hear Hear!!


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