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Old 03-20-2012, 06:45 PM   #31
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So the main was installed in 1910, perhaps it's hammered so bad that it needs replacement- which would be the cities job. Perhaps they could drop in a lateral for you. Save you the work?
As for lining, I've been involved in several of them. Your situation is typical. A lot of our alleys are paved. Cutting and patching asphalt as well as soil compaction testing and additional city bonding requirements make pipe lining an attractive alternative.
You used the phrase "band aid". It is far from that. Very good product. Municipalities do it all the time on some very large pipe.

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Old 03-21-2012, 02:59 PM   #32
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So the main was installed in 1910, perhaps it's hammered so bad that it needs replacement- which would be the cities job. Perhaps they could drop in a lateral for you. Save you the work?
As for lining, I've been involved in several of them. Your situation is typical. A lot of our alleys are paved. Cutting and patching asphalt as well as soil compaction testing and additional city bonding requirements make pipe lining an attractive alternative.
You used the phrase "band aid". It is far from that. Very good product. Municipalities do it all the time on some very large pipe.
I can only hope they'd do that.

My alley isn't paved, but I'm sure it would be a mess if it were to be torn up. Thanks for clarifying the lining thing for me....not knowing anything about that, I hated to use the word 'band aid', but wasn't sure how else to inquire.....
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Old 03-21-2012, 06:36 PM   #33
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Following up on what Eplummer said,you need to find out where the problem lays,have the city inspect there main ,as for your part of the lateral.
Before you dig please take my post under advisement,I am not trying to sound harsh but here it is.
Anything over four feet deep requires a trench box "BY LAW".
Its a lot more involved than just digging a ditch, laying a couple joints of pipe and tying into a lateral.
If you have an open ditch,you also have a huge liability involved,you may wish to ask your HO insurance company if your even covered
In reply to Hardway's post,if you live after being buried your quality of life will be horrible,injuries can vary anywhere from paralysis to organ(s) failure (which happen one by one)
In our local you cannot be dispatched for excavator work unless you have a 16 hour OSHA class and a 20 hour trench safety class.
Personally, I have my OSHA 500 and teach the above classes and have become disgusted by the care-free attitude towards safety to "save time and money" from the people in my profession.
In 1985 I witnessed a fatality first hand, last year we had a "father and son" fatality (son went in after father,both were married and had children).
There is NO REASON to bury people in ditches when the work is being performed by a competent person and according to standards.
There are a lot of inherent dangers that you need to know about,as well as the nomenclature.
I am not trying to sound like a dick but the only thing I will recommenced, is for you to hire a responsible party to perform the work.

Last edited by Ravenworks; 03-21-2012 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 03-21-2012, 07:10 PM   #34
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Moderators: Just wondering what happened to my post explaining bursting and lining? It was the last post before page 3. Was it removed for some reason or just launched into cyber space?
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Old 03-22-2012, 01:26 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Ravenworks View Post
Following up on what Eplummer said,you need to find out where the problem lays,have the city inspect there main ,as for your part of the lateral.
Before you dig please take my post under advisement,I am not trying to sound harsh but here it is.
Anything over four feet deep requires a trench box "BY LAW".
Its a lot more involved than just digging a ditch, laying a couple joints of pipe and tying into a lateral.
If you have an open ditch,you also have a huge liability involved,you may wish to ask your HO insurance company if your even covered
In reply to Hardway's post,if you live after being buried your quality of life will be horrible,injuries can vary anywhere from paralysis to organ(s) failure (which happen one by one)
In our local you cannot be dispatched for excavator work unless you have a 16 hour OSHA class and a 20 hour trench safety class.
Personally, I have my OSHA 500 and teach the above classes and have become disgusted by the care-free attitude towards safety to "save time and money" from the people in my profession.
In 1985 I witnessed a fatality first hand, last year we had a "father and son" fatality (son went in after father,both were married and had children).
There is NO REASON to bury people in ditches when the work is being performed by a competent person and according to standards.
There are a lot of inherent dangers that you need to know about,as well as the nomenclature.
I am not trying to sound like a dick but the only thing I will recommenced, is for you to hire a responsible party to perform the work.
Like I believe I said earlier, I will take necessary steps to be safe. The part in my yard, I'll likely dig up and do by hand. It really isn't that bad and I don't mind the work, if nothing else it's good exercise. Digging by hand, I'll make the trench plenty wide, it's actually easier in my opinion and safe.

The part in the alley, if I have to have it done, I'd like to dig it if I could, but that will no doubt be tough going and if the line is 10' down, I'm not doing it by hand, I'd pay someone. IF I dig it, I'll get an excevator to do the work and again, play it safe. Something tells me, I won't be digging the alley up!

Oh, and I don't mind the safety recommendations. I wouldn't be here asking if I didn't want other peoples input!
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:42 PM   #36
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I'd like to dig it if I could, but that will no doubt be tough going and if the line is 10' down,

Oh, and I don't mind the safety recommendations. I wouldn't be here asking if I didn't want other peoples input!
I would lay money that your lateral is at least 7' if not more,what I am trying to get across to you is this.
In order for your ditch to be compliant without a trench box or approved shoring,you will have you lay your ditch wall back 2' for ever 1' of depth.
So lets say your pipe is 5' deep the top of your ditch would have to be 10'
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Old 03-22-2012, 02:46 PM   #37
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I would lay money that your lateral is at least 7' if not more,what I am trying to get across to you is this.
In order for your ditch to be compliant without a trench box or approved shoring,you will have you lay your ditch wall back 2' for ever 1' of depth.
So lets say your pipe is 5' deep the top of your ditch would have to be 10'

womp there it is!
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Old 03-22-2012, 04:54 PM   #38
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I would lay money that your lateral is at least 7' if not more,what I am trying to get across to you is this.
In order for your ditch to be compliant without a trench box or approved shoring,you will have you lay your ditch wall back 2' for ever 1' of depth.
So lets say your pipe is 5' deep the top of your ditch would have to be 10'
Doing the math in my head and my lateral should only be 4.5' deep at the main. Out of my house, it's about 3' deep, then at max a 70' run. Given the 1/4" per foot drop that should only make it at most 4.5' at the main.

I actually just sent an email to the city engineer that I'm told can provide me with the info as to how deep the main is, so I guess I'll await her response. This will answer a few more questions. Again, at the main, I'm not too worried as it'll have to be hired out, I'm certain.

When I had the rest of the lateral replaced, I didn't go 10' wide, but it was probably at least 4' wide at the top. Maybe not as much as some would like, but that wasn't going anywhere. Not to be argumentative or sound unsafe, but I've never seen anyone use a trechbox on a lateral. On a city main, yes, in someone's yard no. I'll also admit I'm no expert on this, but I do have several years of residential construction experience, so I've been around many new homes being built.

No matter what I do appreciate the feedback.
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:44 PM   #39
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Not to be argumentative or sound unsafe, but I've never seen anyone use a trechbox on a lateral. On a city main, yes, in someone's yard no. I'll also admit I'm no expert on this, but I do have several years of residential construction experience, so I've been around many new homes being built.

No matter what I do appreciate the feedback.
The reason you didn't see it was because the person was probably digging a safe ditch (professional) or to lazy,cheap or ignorant (amateur) to get one.
Either way the only time this becomes a problem is when someone becomes injured.

Here is another FIY by law OHSA has to stop and inspect all ditches when ever a compliance officer is out and about,chances of it ever happening are slim to none.
I hope your project goes well for you.
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Old 03-22-2012, 08:50 PM   #40
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Osha only covers employees ,it has no control over a homeowner
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:02 PM   #41
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Osha only covers employees ,it has no control over a homeowner
You are right,that should have been towards the top of my post.
Doesn't matter anyhow.
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Old 03-23-2012, 10:52 AM   #42
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Well, got a reply from the city engineer and she says the manhole at one end of the alley is 6.3 feet deep, and there is actually a manhole behind my neighbors yard, that is burried approx 6" deep, so she is guessing the main behind my house is 6.8 feet deep and certainly not over 7' deep. She even sent me a .pdf showing the location and depths.

Thought that was pretty cool, now I guess I'll wait to see what their cameras find, possibly install a cleanout at the back edge of my lot and figure out how to proceed from there.
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:24 PM   #43
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Osha only covers employees ,it has no control over a homeowner
Hold true but in our area code compliance steps in, home owner is not allowed to do any type of permitable plumbing work. Not even dig his ditch. touching a city lateral without a permit minimum fine 500 clams a day till permits are pulled.
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Old 03-23-2012, 07:40 PM   #44
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You are right,that should have been towards the top of my post.
Doesn't matter anyhow.
Sad but true,,, last week we went out on a call we charge 185 for a main, or branch, clean out or vent. we also run a free camera to check the line. down here prices range from 500.00 to 125.00 anyway guy thought it was too much so he went to H/D rented a snake 70 bucks,...well he got the cable stuck, between him and his neighbor pulling back on the cable the cable sprung back snapped an sliced half have his face. I know because the wife called us back to get the cable out clear and clear the line. Things are tough moneys tight and you canít blame people for trying to save money but some things are best left to professionals. Sometimes the lessons are extremely expensive.
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Old 03-24-2012, 07:25 AM   #45
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Well, got a reply from the city engineer and she says the manhole at one end of the alley is 6.3 feet deep, and there is actually a manhole behind my neighbors yard, that is burried approx 6" deep, so she is guessing the main behind my house is 6.8 feet deep and certainly not over 7' deep. She even sent me a .pdf showing the location and depths.

Thought that was pretty cool, now I guess I'll wait to see what their cameras find, possibly install a cleanout at the back edge of my lot and figure out how to proceed from there.
wow, that is shallow compared to here in Michigan.

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