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Old 09-28-2011, 11:46 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan View Post
I missed the comment about a 1" hole.

So the next question IMHO is why hasn't it been opened up larger to find the source of the problem, instead of peering through a keyhole into empty space?

Your professionalism is questionable, sarcasm I can get from the guy at Home Depot. When looking thru the hole in my ceiling I can see the corner of the framework for the bottom of the pan that being only 2" of the corner where it then goes over the top of the floor joist and adjoining wall. Previously I stated I could see the corner of the pan that would have been incorrect as it is the framework for the pan. So opening this hole up would serve no purpose as there would be no further visual advantage as to the source.

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Old 09-28-2011, 12:03 PM   #17
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Quote:
I missed the comment about a 1" hole.

So the next question IMHO is why hasn't it been opened up larger to find the source of the problem, instead of peering through a keyhole into empty space?
Hold on now!
You are there, we are not. We have no idea what you are dealing with other than your description of a problem YOU don't understand any better than we do and YOU are there to see it first hand. The next logical thing to do would have been to open up a larger hole for better viewing of the area. I see no sarcasm in that recommendation.

If you think you can exclude all of the prior suggestions and still expect us to find your probelm via a computer keyboard there is something wrong with that logic in my thinking.

Quote:
Previously I stated I could see the corner of the pan that would have been incorrect as it is the framework for the pan. So opening this hole up would serve no purpose as there would be no further visual advantage as to the source.
Good enough!

We can move on.

You still haven't answered my question : Is this a plastic shower pan/tray?

Maybe it's time to call a professional in your area.
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Old 09-28-2011, 12:39 PM   #18
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Hold on now!
You are there, we are not. We have no idea what you are dealing with other than your description of a problem YOU don't understand any better than we do and YOU are there to see it first hand. The next logical thing to do would have been to open up a larger hole for better viewing of the area. I see no sarcasm in that recommendation.

If you think you can exclude all of the prior suggestions and still expect us to find your probelm via a computer keyboard there is something wrong with that logic in my thinking.



Good enough!

We can move on.

You still haven't answered my question : Is this a plastic shower pan/tray?

Maybe it's time to call a professional in your area.
Your right there was no sarcasm in the recommendation just the way it was stated. I appreciate all your help and any prior suggestions received. I have looked into them for results unfortunately none yet. I apologies as I thought I responded to your question. It is not a plastic shower pan It is concrete. I still keep returning to the fact that it only leaks when water is flowing thru the drain. If it were to leak at drain connection could it migrate to the corner of the pan and is it possible to remove and replace the drain parts in the pan without breaking it apart.
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Old 09-28-2011, 01:12 PM   #19
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If the receptor was built properly it has two concrete slopes. The first one on the subfloor, then a vinyl pan-liner, then a second slope.

Water will get through any tile and grout. This is why the floor slopes, obviously. Under the top slope is the pan liner and it too should be sloped to the drain as it sits atop the sloping pre-sloped concrete. The drain should contain weep holes that would take the normal water getting through the tile and grout to the drain.

It is safe to assume that wherever the leak is it, is not in the area (above) the top slope and liner. This could mean the liner was improperly installed and usually this infraction is because the liner was nailed to the studs too low and the nail hole(s) are leaking or the corners of the liner were cut instead of folded.

The walls themselves could also be leaking and directing water behind and below the upper-most folds of the liner.

Quote:
If it were to leak at drain connection could it migrate to the corner of the pan and is it possible to remove and replace the drain parts in the pan without breaking it apart.
Not IF the pan is sloped to the drain properly.

Quote:
If it were to leak at drain connection could it migrate to the corner of the pan and is it possible to remove and replace the drain parts in the pan without breaking it apart.
No!

Here's the next thing...
If the receptor was built without a pre-slope as a lot of them are then the water that migrates into the pan below the tile is just sitting on the pan liner and going nowhere. That water would exchange itself to some degree when the shower is used but would then sit/pool once the shower turned off. If this is the case the water could be seeping under the drain device and finding its way back away from the drain slightly as it clings to the bottom side of the pan liner. This would cause the leak to appear to be at the drain when it is only near the drain and not the drain itself that is leaking.

Run some more water and see if any of this is transpiring.

Not that it matters now, but, how old is this shower?
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Old 09-28-2011, 06:35 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud Cline View Post
If the receptor was built properly it has two concrete slopes. The first one on the subfloor, then a vinyl pan-liner, then a second slope.

Water will get through any tile and grout. This is why the floor slopes, obviously. Under the top slope is the pan liner and it too should be sloped to the drain as it sits atop the sloping pre-sloped concrete. The drain should contain weep holes that would take the normal water getting through the tile and grout to the drain.

It is safe to assume that wherever the leak is it, is not in the area (above) the top slope and liner. This could mean the liner was improperly installed and usually this infraction is because the liner was nailed to the studs too low and the nail hole(s) are leaking or the corners of the liner were cut instead of folded.

The walls themselves could also be leaking and directing water behind and below the upper-most folds of the liner.


Not IF the pan is sloped to the drain properly.


No!

Here's the next thing...
If the receptor was built without a pre-slope as a lot of them are then the water that migrates into the pan below the tile is just sitting on the pan liner and going nowhere. That water would exchange itself to some degree when the shower is used but would then sit/pool once the shower turned off. If this is the case the water could be seeping under the drain device and finding its way back away from the drain slightly as it clings to the bottom side of the pan liner. This would cause the leak to appear to be at the drain when it is only near the drain and not the drain itself that is leaking.

Run some more water and see if any of this is transpiring.

Not that it matters now, but, how old is this shower?
I ran water thru once again and there is no apparent leakage anywhere around the drain at all. The water just starts leaking from the corner thru the ceiling once again. I would guess that the shower was redone in the last 8 years.
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Old 09-28-2011, 06:58 PM   #21
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Before pointing a final accusing finger at the shower pan itself...

Are the wall/wall junctures or wall/floor junctures cracked or gapped? What about the rest of the room and the rest of the house? Any signs of cracking drywall above doors or windows or in corners of outside walls?
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Old 09-28-2011, 07:03 PM   #22
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If your diy'n then just replace the shower. It will not cost much then you get a new shower. The guys here can walk you through the process.
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Old 09-28-2011, 09:55 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by harleymike03 View Post
When looking thru the hole in my ceiling I can see the corner of the framework for the bottom of the pan that being only 2" of the corner where it then goes over the top of the floor joist and adjoining wall. Previously I stated I could see the corner of the pan that would have been incorrect as it is the framework for the pan. So opening this hole up would serve no purpose as there would be no further visual advantage as to the source.
Opening up that particular hole may serve no purpose, but if that is where the leak is showing, it will give you more room to reach around and feel for where the water is originating. Especially considering you have a hole there already that is going to need to be repaired.

So far the entire thread is speculation. Heck you can carve out all the grout in your shower, regrout the whole thing, new sealer, etc, etc, but wouldn't it be easier to do a little investigating first? If you can't see the leak from your 1" hole, and you can't figure out where it's getting out from standing inside the shower, it really only leaves a couple of options.
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Old 10-02-2011, 12:22 PM   #24
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I finally made the decision to tear out the whole pan. Good decision!!!!! The only thing done right with this pan was they put roofing felt on the sub floor at the start of the job. There was no poly liner or any other sort of liner installed just 2 layers of concrete. The cement board that was installed into the pan for the tile was screwed in all along the bottom edge. The gasket where the drain assembly was bolted together showed signs of leakage as well as did the other issues. I now have had to cut out the p-trap to remove the old drain assembly. All the heat and penetrant I have, would not break it loose. So now I am off to reconstruct my shower. I will probably be back asking more questions to put this project back together...Thank You "" All "" for your help and suggestions
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Old 10-02-2011, 03:42 PM   #25
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Actually the roofing felt is still a legal way to build shower pans, but with the advent of the new poly liners, they are much easier to install, less messy, and of course labor saving.

Good luck with the new pan.
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Old 10-02-2011, 04:29 PM   #26
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Poly shower receptor liners have been around for forty years, nothing new about them. Roofing felt is only used as a moisture barrier to separate the cement shower base from the wood structure so that moisture from the curing cement doesn't get into the wood. Roofing felt is also used as a similar moisture barrier over wall studs of a shower and under the wallboard to keep moisture out of the stud-bays. Roofing felt is also used in showers that use the "hot-mop" system of waterproofing using hot roofing tar as a liner. Roofing felt is never used as a waterproof liner for a shower receptor unless it is hot-mopped.
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Old 10-02-2011, 08:09 PM   #27
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Roofing felt is also used in showers that use the "hot-mop" system of waterproofing using hot roofing tar as a liner. Roofing felt is never used as a waterproof liner for a shower receptor unless it is hot-mopped.
Right, guess I wasn't specific enough, but I just assumed that's what his was.
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Old 10-02-2011, 10:27 PM   #28
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Right, guess I wasn't specific enough, but I just assumed that's what his was.
I can see where you would think that living in California. That's one of the few places in the country where hot mopping shower receptors is a norm.

I don't see where the OP offers his location and if it were in his profile it would be helpful to everyone.
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Old 10-03-2011, 10:31 AM   #29
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I can see where you would think that living in California. That's one of the few places in the country where hot mopping shower receptors is a norm.

I don't see where the OP offers his location and if it were in his profile it would be helpful to everyone.

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