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Old 05-07-2010, 12:06 AM   #16
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Incomplete softener flushing


What type and brand of resin gets 32K with only 12 lbs of salt?

I've always been told 30 at 15 lbs for regular mesh resins.

Here's what Puroliter C-100 does;

http://www.purolite.com/Customized/C...es/rid_339.pdf

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Old 05-07-2010, 07:44 AM   #17
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Incomplete softener flushing


Quote:
Originally Posted by dadaddio View Post
Don't know how to check salt dosage as the 5600 must calculate itself based on the hardness and capacity.

I appreciate all the help.
David
The sticker you found on output port is the size of the drain line flow control (DLFC).

There should be a second sticker on the back of the valve that lists the size of the BLFC and we need that information also. With the size of the BLFC and the minutes of brine fill the salt dose can be computed. AK did a calculation above assuming that the BLFC is 0.5 gpm--the most common size for that control. However, there are several other sizes available and without the data from your softener we are just guessing.

Also please post the hardness setting you are using and the programmed grains of capacity you are using.

Last edited by Bob999; 05-07-2010 at 07:48 AM. Reason: add information
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Old 05-07-2010, 07:51 AM   #18
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Incomplete softener flushing


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
What type and brand of resin gets 32K with only 12 lbs of salt?

I've always been told 30 at 15 lbs for regular mesh resins.

Here's what Puroliter C-100 does;

http://www.purolite.com/Customized/C...es/rid_339.pdf
The poster said he has a 64K softener so I am assuming it is a 2 cubic foot unit. That would mean (assuming a 0.5 BLFC) that his salt dose is 9 lbs per cubic foot--not 12.

I think it is important that we get all his softener settings to ensure it is set up correctly for the reported water conditions. In my experience that is the more likely cause of the problem he is experiencing than inadequate pump output.
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Old 05-07-2010, 02:17 PM   #19
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Incomplete softener flushing


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
The poster said he has a 64K softener so I am assuming it is a 2 cubic foot unit. That would mean (assuming a 0.5 BLFC) that his salt dose is 9 lbs per cubic foot--not 12.
I wasn't replying to the OP Bob, I was replying to AKpsdvan, he said;
"If you are filling the brine tank for 12 minutes at .5gpm that would be 6 gallons of water , 1 gallon of water will do 3lbs of salt, 6gallons times 3lbs would be 18lbs of salt, one cubic foot of resin maxs out at 12lbs at ruffly 32000 grains.
If you have 1.5 cubic foot of resin that would top out at 48000 with the 18lbs."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
I think it is important that we get all his softener settings to ensure it is set up correctly for the reported water conditions. In my experience that is the more likely cause of the problem he is experiencing than inadequate pump output.
Which I am addressing with my questions above that haven't been answered yet. I see you seem to have missed that misinformation but....

The OP says that he by passes the softener and his pressure/flow does not improve Bob, that can't be because his programming is incorrect.
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Old 05-07-2010, 02:39 PM   #20
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Incomplete softener flushing


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
Which I am addressing with my questions above that haven't been answered yet. I see you seem to have missed that misinformation but....
I haven't seen any questions you have posed about water softener settings in this thread. What questions are you referring to?
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Old 05-07-2010, 06:18 PM   #21
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Incomplete softener flushing


Recap (plus complete softener settings):
Problem: After softener regeneration, the water from the faucet is rust colored which I assume to be liberated iron from the softener that has remained in system (I am assuming its coming from the softener) so I need to run a nearby faucet for 5-10 minutes until water runs clear.
Well: Original Record of Water Well from 1995 which indicates
- Total Depth of well: 60' - Depth of Pump Setting: 45' Suggested - Static level: 14' - Diameter: 5" - Casing length 37' - Depth of grout: from 9 to 37
- Test rate: 20 gpm for 1 hour using Air
Current Well: According to the drilling company report that deepened well a few years ago: "Deepened well from 60' to 120'. Well now produces 40gpm and has 29' static water level." 1/2 horse pump;
Water Condition: two local softener places provided readings of 20 and 29 gpg of hardness and 2.5 and 3 ppm iron. The well is within 15 feet of the house.

New softener installed this past winter. Noticed that incoming 3/4" CPVC pipe from pressure tank has rust build-up, maybe 1/8 inch.

New Softener: new FLECK 5600SXT ERADICATOR 3000 ON-DEMAND WATER SOFTENER/FILTER = high capacity fine mesh resin, .25 ft3 gravel bed, KDF 85 MEDIA GUARD, 64,000 grain, 5600SXT ON-DEMAND CONTROL VALVE; system can be seen at apluswater.net

Fleck Specs:
Brine Input (printed): 0.5gpm, 1.5 lb/min.
Drain (handwritten): Injector: 1; Drain Flow: 3.5gpm
Valve Type: Standard Downflow, Single Backwash (code St1b)
Control Type: Meter Delayed
Single Tank
Unit Capacity: 64,000
Feedwater Hardness: 35
Reserve Selection: Safety Factor
Safety Factor: 10% (this appears sufficient for our needs)
Day Override: 7
Regen Time: 02:00
Backwash: 15 min (I increased this from the defualt 10min)
Brine Draw: 60 min
Rapid Rinse: 15min (I increased form default 10min)
Brine Fill: 12 min
Flow Meter Type: Fleck 3/4" Turbine Meter (t0.7)

Goal: Find "inexpensive" solution so regeneration is successful. (inexpensive can include some replacing pipes, media, etc.) When in service, the softener appears to work well. We have less hardness and less iron based on color, taste, boiled water doesn't get a rust color to it, glasses cleaner in dishwasher.

Thanks,
David

Last edited by dadaddio; 05-07-2010 at 06:25 PM. Reason: Clarify
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Old 05-07-2010, 08:46 PM   #22
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Incomplete softener flushing


Your settings are not correct and correcting them will probably resolve your problem with rust colored water after regeneration.

Your salt dose is 18 lbs and with 2 cubic feet of resin that is 9 lbs per cubic foot. That salt dose provides a capacity of approximately 58,000 grains (EDIT increased from 50,000 to 58,000 because fine mesh resin was not taken into account in initial post)--not the 64,000 you presently have set.

I believe you should either get new water tests of use the higher figures (at least initially--you can adjust later)--that would be 29 + 3 x 4 = 41 grains hardness rather than the 35 you are presently using.

With the amount of iron you have I believe you should be regenerating every 4 days. If, after making the adjustments suggested above your typical regeneration frequency is more than 4 days I would suggest reducing the salt dose --and as a result the capacity to get a regeneration closer to 4 days.

After adjusting the settings set the softener to regenerate that evening.

The safety factor should be related to the frequency of regeneration and 10% is low. The safety factor provides for the situation where the softener hit regeneration gallons early in the day and then continues to soften water all day until the regeneration at 2AM. If you are regenerating every 4 days a safety factor of 20% is more appropriate.

Last edited by Bob999; 05-08-2010 at 08:12 AM. Reason: add information and correction
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Old 05-08-2010, 12:17 AM   #23
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Incomplete softener flushing


The system is just about right.
Back washing for this unit, 2 cubic with the kdf 85 should be more like 20 minutes at 6gpm. Main reason is that kdf is heavy.. very heavy. 1/3 of a cubic that has a service flow rate of 6gpm needs 10gpm for the backwash.
Putting kdf at the bottom of the resin is a challenge... to high of a back wash and you push out the resin, to low and you do not clean the kdf as needed and that is the main reason for after the cleaning cycle the water is colored.
Up the brine draw rinse time from 60 to 80 minutes, 60 works for up to 1.5 cubic, you have 2 cubic foot so you are going to need more time.
Rapid rinse should be 4 times volume of the media tank, if the media tank can hold 10 gallons then you need to push 40 gallons through on the rapid rinse... if you are at 6gpm then that is going to be in the neighborhood of 9 minutes, one way of double checking that is when the unit goes into the rapid rinse watch the discharge water and when it has run clear for 2 minutes you know that the time you need to have it clean at the sink.
that might be 10 minutes, it might be more or less.
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Old 05-08-2010, 12:30 AM   #24
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Incomplete softener flushing


Bob, he has 2.0 cuft of fine mesh resin.

Does that make any difference in your programming suggestions?
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Old 05-08-2010, 08:13 AM   #25
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Incomplete softener flushing


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
Bob, he has 2.0 cuft of fine mesh resin.

Does that make any difference in your programming suggestions?
Thanks Gary. I missed that and I have edited my post.
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Old 05-08-2010, 01:05 PM   #26
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Incomplete softener flushing


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
Thanks Gary. I missed that and I have edited my post.
You are also not paying any attention to his low flow problem and as long as that exists he is not going to get proper backwash etc. etc. until he has the correct volume of water available at the proper pressure. So IMO you are wasting his time and I also don't agree with your settings.

David, I have two guys here, Bob and AKpsdvan, that disagree with most everything I say on every forum I post on. As far as I can tell Bob does not have any experience in sizing, selling or servicing softeners etc. and that is because from his first post on any forum about last July, Bob refuses to say what his experience is.

AKpsdvan does things with his equipment that is not industry standard, like using a smaller sized resin tank and putting more resin in it and then a Turbulator (which Bob agrees with). I have not said anything about that except I wouldn't do it and he says it works for him in AK with much colder water than the lower 48 states where I sell equipment. The colder water gets better backwashes than warmer water does so you need less water to regenrate with. So that's good enough for me. But then when I ask him about other comments he has made he doesn't answer; like his capacity figures (32k) for a 1 cuft of regular mesh resin with 12 lbs of salt he mentioned. I've never heard numbers like that from any resin manufacturer or dealer.

Anyway, until you get the right gpm flow rate and pressure to this softener it isn't going to work right with any settings but, the longer the cycle positions run for, the more capacity is used and the higher salt dose you need to regenerate that used resin with.

And the regenerating every 4 days for only 2 ppm of iron doubles the total water vloume used compared to my sizing for a regeneration on average every 8 days. I've been using regular resin and a gravel underbed on up to 5 ppm of iron for over 20 years without complaints IF the custoemr will follow my ditrections of how to clean the resin once every 4-6 weeks. Over 5 (to 13 ppm) of iron I go with SST-60 and a Turbulator, and the resin cleaning ;again without complaints.

I also run the backwash etc. for much less time than is being proposed to you here. And I use a Clack WS-1 control valve that does not require a reserve capacity to be calculated and subtracted from the K of capacity or the total gallons; the computer does it out of the K of capacity I program for with the salt dose I program.

With low water flow you are much better off with a gravel underbed instead but, without better flow nothing is going to work.
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Old 05-08-2010, 04:31 PM   #27
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Incomplete softener flushing


dadaddio i I'm going to bypass the other posts in this thread and stick to your original question. It appears as though you have a problem with the water flow in your home. It may be the pump, it may be the piping and it may be a combination of the two. The 1/8" of iron build up is a pretty good clue that things are on the way to plugging up. I suggest that you pull the pump and check the inlet screen. If it's all clogged up, I'm gonna suggest that you replace it because the impellers are probably in the same condition. Change the drop pipe also while you are at it. If you can replace the pipe to the house, do so. If not maybe you can back flush it or blow the iron out with air pressure. Change the pipe in the house from the tank to the softener also. Your well and a 1/2 hp pump should be more than adequate to supply enough volume and pressure to backwash the unit. Once you get good flow established we can talk about settings, until then you are pretty much chasing your tail.

( you can try sitting the pump in a bucket of Iron out )
( a plumber with a power drain cleaner and a 3/8 cable with brush may be able to get through the underground pipe )
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Last edited by NHMaster; 05-08-2010 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 05-08-2010, 04:59 PM   #28
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Incomplete softener flushing


i would think with the well being 15' from the house a new line is doable
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Old 05-08-2010, 09:52 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Slusser View Post
You are also not paying any attention to his low flow problem and as long as that exists he is not going to get proper backwash etc. etc. until he has the correct volume of water available at the proper pressure. So IMO you are wasting his time and I also don't agree with your settings.
It is not that I wasn't paying attention to the low flow problem -- that was being dealt with so I saw no need to post about that.

Rather I observed that no one had thought to ask about his settings and to see if that might be contributing to the problem of rusty water after a regeneration. It turned out when the settings were posted that, in my view, the settings could be improved and that there was a good possibility that it would help with the problem.

If you don't agree with the settings you should post what you believe would be appropriate settings rather than bashing me and what I recommend. You demean yourself with your ranting.

There is more than one way to approach water treatment and, in my view, your views are just one persons views. Others have different views and often as not they are just as good or better. Just because you do things one way does not mean that there are not other ways and just because someone does things differently than you recommend does not make them wrong.
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Old 05-09-2010, 12:27 AM   #30
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Incomplete softener flushing


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob999 View Post
It is not that I wasn't paying attention to the low flow problem -- that was being dealt with so I saw no need to post about that.

Rather I observed that no one had thought to ask about his settings and to see if that might be contributing to the problem of rusty water after a regeneration. It turned out when the settings were posted that, in my view, the settings could be improved and that there was a good possibility that it would help with the problem.

If you don't agree with the settings you should post what you believe would be appropriate settings rather than bashing me and what I recommend. You demean yourself with your ranting.

There is more than one way to approach water treatment and, in my view, your views are just one persons views. Others have different views and often as not they are just as good or better. Just because you do things one way does not mean that there are not other ways and just because someone does things differently than you recommend does not make them wrong.
I used to do it the way you and others say to do it, then I learned the error of my ways and changed them for the benefit of my customers.

Back in those earlier days I used to 'debate' with a guy like you do with me minus the nasty names you call me. See he used to tell me as I am telling you and I argued and disagreed with him as you do me. He then disappeared from the internet and not too long after that I found out he was right about larger equipment being more efficient etc etc. when I was asked to sell a softener for 1.5" water line, 5.5 bathrooms with two master baths each with 6 body sprays, two shower heads and a large overhead spray shower head and 6 adults in the household that scared me to death.

So I called my mentor/supplier of 10 years and he said constant SFR Slusser!, and took me back to the book learnin' days and something I had learned but never used in sizing and had forgotten about totally. And I have been sizing correctly ever since.

You are not sizing correctly when you size for 4 day regeneration because of 2 ppm of iron. You are doing that and proposing a Turbulator and SST-60 using magic capacity because you don't know any better and will have to learn it on your own like I did after Dan M gave up on me. I owe Dan an apology.

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