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ChrisDIY 06-21-2011 11:36 AM

I thought I understood plumbing, private well flow rate question
 
I did a little testing last night so I hope someone can explain if this is normal or I have a supply line that is installed incorrectly somewhere. I have lived on municipal water up until two years ago. SO trying to understand this.

I have an Aeromotor T series pump 12 gpm at well depth of 40 feet. Running well so its not the problem.

I have a Water Ace RPT 86 well pressure tank, whole house filtration, whole house iron filter (Fleck 7000 high flow) Whirlpool water softener, also whirlpool whole house charcoal filter. With every faucet in the house open in the middle (single control lever) or both wide open (two handle) the highest flow rate I can get is 7.7 gpm. If I by pass each filter I can gain about 2 gpm. However when I close the hot side or turn the single controls to cold the flow rate doesn't change. Shouldn't it go down at least by 20% to 40%? The rate also doesn't change much as the pressure drops form 60 psi to 40 psi when pump kicks on.

I was under the impression that if I upgraded the well pump I can get higher flow rates but now I don't think that is what is needed. The current well pump with everything wide open is able to almost refill the pressure tank although very slowly.



Adding a higher capacity pump will only speed the rate tank is re-filled not change the flow in the house, correct?
  1. What can I do to get a higher flow rate after the pressure tank?
  2. I had started increasing the pipe size from 3/4" to 1-1/4" but only have gotten to charcoal filter inlet side. Am I wasting my time?
  3. I have a tempering valve installed on the water heater, can this affect flow rate?
  4. Adding another pressure tank will only increase supply of water available before pumps turns on?
  5. I am finding errors with every project have done in this house is there any known errors that could have been done I should look for? Loops? Hot/Cold connected together somewhere? So now I am wondering...
Any help would be appreciated.

gseith 06-21-2011 03:19 PM

I added a booster pump to help with water pressure. The pressure in my house was only 16psi. You can add the booster pump after the water tank.

AllanJ 06-21-2011 04:20 PM

Are you sure the well can deliver (or still delivers) 12 gallons per minute continuously?

You may need a storage tank as well as a pressure tank.

The storage tank allows the pump to deliver a trickle over a long period of time, say, overnight and then you have enough water to use during the day.

If you put a booster pump in, you need another pressure tank after the booster pump.

ChrisDIY 06-21-2011 04:28 PM

Are these storage tanks different than pressure tanks, i.e. no bladder?

So this would get installed after pressure tank: check valve, storage then booster or check valve, booster then storage? Can all this go after my water treatment but before water heater?

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Bob999 06-21-2011 04:29 PM

What does the pressure gage at the pressure tank tee show when you have all flowing--is it maintaining at least the low side of your pump switch settings (typically 30/50 or 40/60)?

If the pressure at the pressure tank under flow is all right I would suspect a restriction at a common point in the plumbing between the outlet on the pressure tank and the first filter.

ChrisDIY 06-21-2011 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob999 (Post 671458)
What does the pressure gage at the pressure tank tee show when you have all flowing--is it maintaining at least the low side of your pump switch settings (typically 30/50 or 40/60)?

If the pressure at the pressure tank under flow is all right I would suspect a restriction at a common point in the plumbing between the outlet on the pressure tank and the first filter.

As soon as pressure drops to 40 psi pump kicks on. Pressure slowly increases about 1 psi every 30-40 seconds. While running at 7.7 gpm.

AllanJ:

I am not sure if pump is putting out the 12 gpm. But I wouldn't be able to leave water treatment in bypass. With all bypassed seems pretty close to 10.5-11 gpm. I'm thinking fancy shower isn't going to happen... :confused1: Most single tanks I've found will draw down in 60 seconds with this shower.

Akpsdvan 06-21-2011 11:23 PM

The more equipment that you have in the water line from the well to the end point with in the house the more the pressure loss and flow loss.
It is the nature of the game.
Just why are so many needed?

Bob999 06-22-2011 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisDIY (Post 671754)
As soon as pressure drops to 40 psi pump kicks on. Pressure slowly increases about 1 psi every 30-40 seconds. While running at 7.7 gpm.

AllanJ:

I am not sure if pump is putting out the 12 gpm. But I wouldn't be able to leave water treatment in bypass. With all bypassed seems pretty close to 10.5-11 gpm. I'm thinking fancy shower isn't going to happen... :confused1: Most single tanks I've found will draw down in 60 seconds with this shower.

With the capacity of your bladder tank you can compute the well pump output. In your example the pump is providing 7.7 gpm plus the amount that is gradually refilling the tank. For example if your pressure tank capacity with a 40/60 pressure setting is 3 gallons and it takes one minute for the pressure tank to go from 40 to 60 psi then the well pump is putting out 7.7 + 3 = 10.7 gpm.

Given what you are seeing I would suspect a restriction in the piping after the pressure tank. Do you have CPVC piping? The inside diameter of CPVC is smaller for any given nominal size than copper of PVC. With iron in your water the inside of the pipe may be fouled and reducing flow.

But in the overall scheme of things I think you are correct that a very large flow show head is not feasible with your existing well/well pump because with the very slow filling of the pressure tank with flow of 7.7 gpm I suspect your well pump is only delivering about 8 gpm.

I further suspect that when you bypass your treatment equipment that the pressure tank isn't filling at all and the pressure drops below 40 psi.

If your well recovery rate allows it you could put a larger pump in the well to get more water but you want to be sure not to exceed the well recovery rate--at all times of the year.

ChrisDIY 06-22-2011 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akpsdvan (Post 671783)
The more equipment that you have in the water line from the well to the end point with in the house the more the pressure loss and flow loss.
It is the nature of the game.
Just why are so many needed?

Source: Private Well
pH: 7
Iron: 2.8 PPM
Manganese: 0 PPM
Hardness: 667 PPM
Hardness: 39 Grains per Gallon
Total Dissolved Solids ('TDS"): 871 PPM
Tannin: 0

ChrisDIY 06-22-2011 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob999 (Post 671942)
With the capacity of your bladder tank you can compute the well pump output. In your example...

...larger pump in the well to get more water but you want to be sure not to exceed the well recovery rate--at all times of the year.

I spent all day reconnecting the outside water spigots and installing the stand pipe. I was able to fill a 5 gallon bucket from closed to fully open while filling in under 15 seconds. Tee to outside lines are after iron filter.

Akpsdvan 06-22-2011 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisDIY (Post 672401)
Source: Private Well
pH: 7
Iron: 2.8 PPM
Manganese: 0 PPM
Hardness: 667 PPM
Hardness: 39 Grains per Gallon
Total Dissolved Solids ('TDS"): 871 PPM
Tannin: 0

So that does not say why the large number of treatment units.

So there is just under 3.0 iron, and 39 grains of hardness....

Any smell?

Always use just the equipment needed and no more..

Bob999 06-22-2011 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisDIY (Post 672406)
I spent all day reconnecting the outside water spigots and installing the stand pipe. I was able to fill a 5 gallon bucket from closed to fully open while filling in under 15 seconds. Tee to outside lines are after iron filter.

Are you saying you have replaced the piping from the pressure tank to the outside spigots? If so did you find blockage in the pipes?

ChrisDIY 06-23-2011 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob999 (Post 672414)
Are you saying you have replaced the piping from the pressure tank to the outside spigots? If so did you find blockage in the pipes?

I replaced the pipes in-between the iron filter and the softener. There was no blockage. My thoughts now are that the flow is restricted at the softener and charcoal filter. Both of these will need to be upgraded as they took on iron content before I purchased the iron filter. Can't imagine that would be so bad in only 18 months. Fleck 7000 filters are high flow. Currently have Whirlpool.

What I need to do is figure out how to get the Fleck 7000 meter to display gpm.

Bob999 06-23-2011 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisDIY (Post 672590)
I replaced the pipes in-between the iron filter and the softener. There was no blockage. My thoughts now are that the flow is restricted at the softener and charcoal filter. Both of these will need to be upgraded as they took on iron content before I purchased the iron filter. Can't imagine that would be so bad in only 18 months. Fleck 7000 filters are high flow. Currently have Whirlpool.

What I need to do is figure out how to get the Fleck 7000 meter to display gpm.

The Fleck 7000 will only display flow if it has a flow sensor--most filter versions of the valve don't.

As I understand your installation you have four filters installed. When you say you bypass a filter and get an increase in flow of 2 gpm are you bypassing 1 filter or all four filters?

Each filter and its associated valve/piping is going to cause a pressure drop and a resulting reduction in flow. Unless you have lots of silt or particulate matter in the water I don't see the need for the "whole hours filter" (is this a cartridge filter or a backwashing filter?) I also question the need for the "whole house carbon filter" with well water. If both of these filters are cartridge filters that could be a large part of your problem.

Alan 06-23-2011 09:26 AM

Question : Don't filter systems (IE water softeners, iron removal, ph balance, etc. etc. etc. . . . ) have an integral flow restriction device in them?

:wink:

I think they might even be right around 7 GPM.


Why do you NEED more than 7.7 gpm that you state that you are getting in your original post?


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