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Old 01-17-2010, 12:22 PM   #1
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Hydrogen peroxide water treatment


Hi everyone. I am looking for some "experts" on residential water treatment that can steer me in the right direction. I live about 26 miles west of Chicago and draw my water from a private well. Unfortunately the raw water from the well is terrible - there is a high amount of iron, hydrogen sulfide, and manganese (and associated stink and staining!). I have tried many things to make my water "perfect" which is my goal, and I am now leaning towards Hydrogen Peroxide as an oxidizer but need some guidance.

I currently have a dry pellet in-line chlorinator, retention/contact tank, and a backwashing centaur carbon filter. It has worked decent for a couple years, but the carbon is shot, and chlorine and iron is getting through the system. Maintenance is also a pain, because I have to disassemble and soak parts of the chlorine "hopper" in muriatic acid about every 2 months.

I am specifically looking at a Stenner Proportional Injection System (http://www.stenner.com/specs-proinjectsys.htm) but don't know much about the unit, or using peroxide as an oxidiser. I am looking for something a little more reliable and durable than my current system, and also a little more "non toxic". I am also not sure about the ongoing costs or amount of peroxide used in such a system.

I would really appreciate if anyone has any helpful information on this Stenner unit, or knows of an honest "peroxide specialist" around the Chicago area.

Thanks - Aaron
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Old 01-19-2010, 08:59 PM   #2
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Hydrogen peroxide water treatment


I have a similar problem, but live in NW MN. I was looking at systems, but just can't decide. They are all expensive.

Here is an article about different water problems and treatment options.

http://www.ag.ndsu.edu/pubs/h2oqual/watsys/ae1045w.htm

I do the chlorine "shock treatment."

http://www.well-water-treatment.com/shockcl2.htm

although I have never done the measuring part, which may explain a few things...

Good luck
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Old 01-20-2010, 09:52 PM   #3
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Hydrogen peroxide water treatment


Thanks for giving me this link Bill - This is a great resource, and they actually explain things so most people can understand it.
My 1st system was very expensive too, but at least I saved on the install by doing it myself.
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Old 01-22-2010, 06:24 AM   #4
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Hydrogen peroxide water treatment


AaronF,

Here is another link...

http://www.gov.mb.ca/mit/mwsb/pdf/shockchlorination.pdf
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Old 01-24-2010, 12:58 PM   #5
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Hydrogen peroxide water treatment


hydrogen peroxide huuu?? I have been doing residential and indus. water treatment for over 15 years now I would steer you towards hypochlorite injection it is easier to obtain the chemical and safer to deal with and store . I would not use the solid tablets though for your application I would use a chemical feeder pump like the stennar or the chem-tech 030 . From the well into the pressure tank to a chem injection port to the retention tank to the carbon tank to the house . But there are a few details you still need to work out.... how much iron, Ph , alkalinity, hardness, size of retention tank number of people, lots of little things. get som eof the info and I wil get you the numbes you need to make it work .
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Old 01-24-2010, 01:06 PM   #6
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I second the last post.
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Old 02-25-2010, 10:13 PM   #7
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Hydrogen peroxide water treatment


Hi everyone. I am looking for some "experts" on residential water treatment that can steer me in the right direction.
I hope I can help you a little. Sorry for being so late.

I live about 26 miles west of Chicago and draw my water from a private well. Unfortunately the raw water from the well is terrible - there is a high amount of iron, hydrogen sulfide, and manganese (and associated stink and staining!).
Saying your iron, sulfur, etc. is HIGH is OK but actual numbers would be a great help. In my area we have both high iron (0.1-7ppm) and sulfur (0 - 60ppm!).

I have tried many things to make my water "perfect" which is my goal, and I am now leaning towards Hydrogen Peroxide as an oxidizer but need some guidance.
I have used H202 for many years. It is not a simple solution but very effective and requires little babysitting. I find that creates less fallout than chlorine.

I currently have a dry pellet in-line chlorinator, retention/contact tank, and a backwashing centaur carbon filter. It has worked decent for a couple years, but the carbon is shot, and chlorine and iron is getting through the system.
How big is your retention tank? you'll need at least 20-minutes of contact time. The are smaller tanks that have mixing tubs inside. I prefer the larger tanks for contact time and drainage. How often do you drain the tank? Monthly?

Maintenance is also a pain, because I have to disassemble and soak parts of the chlorine "hopper" in muriatic acid about every 2 months.
Yes, I have heard this from others. When you mix iron containing water with bleach used as an oxidizer, it converts the iron from a ferrous state to ferric, or clear to rusty sediment. The pellet feeder, whcih holds the pellets, comes into contact woith the water and converts the iron right there in the 'hopper'.

I am specifically looking at a Stenner Proportional Injection System (http://www.stenner.com/specs-proinjectsys.htm) but don't know much about the unit, or using peroxide as an oxidiser. I am looking for something a little more reliable and durable than my current system, and also a little more "non toxic". I am also not sure about the ongoing costs or amount of peroxide used in such a system.
I use the Stenner as it is an excellent tool, very easy to adjust and repair (tube changing). We use a 7% solution. As for maintenance costs, again, numbers are essential. Number of people, iron, and other water conditions. Do you have any other equipment such as a softener?

I would really appreciate if anyone has any helpful information on this Stenner unit, or knows of an honest "peroxide specialist" around the Chicago area.
Sorry, I don't know anyone in that area.

Andy Christensen, CWS-II

Thanks - Aaron[/quote]
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Old 02-26-2010, 01:37 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Andy CWS View Post
Maintenance is also a pain, because I have to disassemble and soak parts of the chlorine "hopper" in muriatic acid about every 2 months.
Yes, I have heard this from others. When you mix iron containing water with bleach used as an oxidizer, it converts the iron from a ferrous state to ferric, or clear to rusty sediment. The pellet feeder, whcih holds the pellets, comes into contact woith the water and converts the iron right there in the 'hopper'.
I've not heard of or seen that problem and I've been selling that system for 15 years on up to and over 10 ppm of iron.
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Old 02-27-2010, 04:45 PM   #9
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MY bet is if you check your water you have high alkalinity . That is what is precipitating out of solution and attaching to your parts i have seen and treated it with sucess.
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Old 03-01-2010, 01:23 PM   #10
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Hydrogen peroxide water treatment


Thanks for the input Andy. Here are some additional details based on your questions:

An Underwriters Laboratories DrinkWell Water Test (www.uldrinkwell.com) of my water provided the following results a few years ago:
Nitrate = Not Detected
Nitrite = Not Detected
Turbidity = 34 NTU
Total Alkalinity = 300 mg/L as CaCO3
Total Hardness = 480 mg/L as CaCO3
Iron = 5.4 mg/L
Manganese = 34 ug/L
pH = 7.2
Sodium = 71 mg/L

My retention tank is a: 12" x 65" polyglass special mixing/retention tank sold by Quality Water Associates (I noticed Gary also commented - Gary, can you elaborate on the mixing tank?)

I drain a few gallons from the tank at minimum once a week. At one point, I was automatically flushing it for a minute every day with timed diaphragm valve to minimize the amount of iron getting to my carbon, but I gave up on this and went back to manually flushing. (I am still wondering if I should make a setup with an electrically actuated ball valve operated by a timed relay to flush the iron to the drain before it goes into the carbon tank to minimize fouling potential.)

After the mixing tank, I go into a 1.5' centaur carbon filter, and then into a 1.5' softener. From the softener - it goes to the house.

Currently there are only two people in the house. It is a 3 bed / 1.5 bath house. Some of the usage info from the softener meter is:
- Maximum flow rate since start up = 11.4 gal/minute
- In operation for 1168 days w/ 153,000 gallons used (131 gallons / day average)
- Has regenerated 217 times in 1168 days (average every 5.4 days)

Is there any information I may be missing to see if peroxide is a feasible solution?

Thanks - Aaron
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Old 03-01-2010, 07:35 PM   #11
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Hydrogen peroxide water treatment


You told me on my forum that you allowed the hopper to run out of pellets. As I told you that leads to ruined carbon.

Now I hear that you have not been blowing down the mixing tank once a month as I told you to and with as much water as needed to get the water as clear as possible.

This one minute once a day is not right and probably causes inadequate cleaning of the rust off the bottom of the tank. That one minute flow would probably allow rust to build up away from the drain and eventually get out of the tank into the carbon. It also will cause the chlorine solution strength in the tank to be changed. The strength of the chlorine in the tank is important, and draining a minute every day is probably messing that volume (strength) up because the pump wouldn't have to run during the draining, plus the chlorinator only works for part of the pump run time and you are flushing with less than the max water pressure, unless no water had been used since the last time the pump shut off.

Until you replace the carbon, the system can not and will not work. So you might as well empty the chlorine out of the hopper and by pass the carbon filter and reprogram the softener for the amount of hardness, iron and manganese you have.

You would do that after 2 back to back manual regenerations at 23 lbs of salt and no water use during or between the two. And you should pour a solution of a 1/2 cup of Iron Out in 2 gals of water down the brine well before each of the manual regenerations. Your pre refill and 2 hr pause will dissolve salt doing it that way.
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Old 03-01-2010, 10:23 PM   #12
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Hydrogen peroxide water treatment


Gary - Your comments indicate some of the reasons that I am researching alternate systems... I'm sure it works great for some people, but I haven't had the greatest of luck. Like I mentioned, I need something a little more robust that will not get ruined if there is to much or not enough chlorine, especially when the actual feed rate is somewhat unpredictable. This is one of the reasons I think I would prefer a system that has the ability to accurately control the dose of the oxidizer. Relying strictly on variance in system pressure will not yield consistent results, especially when various amounts of water are being used in each well pump cycle.

After flushing the retention tank for about a minute, the water runs clear. The first 15-20 seconds are extremely dirty, but after that - clear with chlorine smell. This tells me that it is not necessary to keep flushing water through - right? Run until clear? I don't see the need to flush 20 gallons of chlorinated water down the drain if in fact it is clear...

The point of this post is to understand more and educate myself and others about treatment systems using peroxide as an alternative to chlorine. Can you add anything to this subject matter? As I mentioned before, I am satisfied with the service you have provided to me and happy with the softener, and respect your industry knowledge. I am not trying to talk others out of or slam the system you sell...

Aaron
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Old 03-02-2010, 08:12 AM   #13
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Hydrogen peroxide water treatment


Thanks for the input Andy. Here are some additional details based on your questions:

An Underwriters Laboratories DrinkWell Water Test (www.uldrinkwell.com) of my water provided the following results a few years ago:
Nitrate = Not Detected
Nitrite = Not Detected
Turbidity = 34 NTU
Total Alkalinity = 300 mg/L as CaCO3
Total Hardness = 480 mg/L as CaCO3
Iron = 5.4 mg/L
Manganese = 34 ug/L
pH = 7.2
Sodium = 71 mg/L
Your iron can be considered 'problem' water. Special considerations need to be taken and systems that may work at lower levels may not work at elevated levels.

Your hardness is under 30 grains and, although considered extremely hard, it is not challenging on its own. Your softener is big enough to handle the hardness for two people if set properly. By-passing the iron filtering system will greatly increase the softener's work load and may need to regen every two days---or more.

Calculating iron (ferrous iron only) for removal by the softener will greatly increase your total compensated hardness (TCH).

I believe you can simply by-pass the carbon filter but the retention tank and pellet feeder don't have that built in to it, right? You would need to leave the feeder empty and just let the water pass through the retention tank.

If you do that and drain the retention tank later, you should notice a great drop n precipitated iron...but some may still be created in the retention tank. Any that is not flushed out may be passed through to the softener, which is not designed to handle that type of iron.

My retention tank is a: 12" x 65" polyglass special mixing/retention tank sold by Quality Water Associates
This tank has an 'oxidizer' inside. It is basically a tube that mixes the chemical and water by swirling it and blending it more evenly. It should give the chemical an accelerated reaction for precipitatin of the iron causing that sediment to the bottom of the tank.

I believe 'time' is still an important factor in completing the precipitation I have found that 20+ minutes of contact time is adequate, in most cases, to precipitate. Rule of thumb is the shorter the contact time, the more concentration of chemical feed.

Understanding the differences between the free chlorine and total chlorine levels is also beneficial.

I drain a few gallons from the tank at minimum once a week. At one point, I was automatically flushing it for a minute every day with timed diaphragm valve to minimize the amount of iron getting to my carbon, but I gave up on this and went back to manually flushing.
Flushing the retention tank is a very important part of your on-going maintenance--and many do not bother to do. Why did you give up on the automatic setting? How did doing it manually improve it...or did it?

(I am still wondering if I should make a setup with an electrically actuated ball valve operated by a timed relay to flush the iron to the drain before it goes into the carbon tank to minimize fouling potential.)
That may help because consistency is important with that set up. You want to avoid iron precipitation from getting into the carbon bed as much as possible. The primary purpose of the of the carbon bed is to rid the water of free chlorine. Dumping iron into it can foul the carbon.

After the mixing tank, I go into a 1.5' centaur carbon filter, and then into a 1.5' softener. From the softener - it goes to the house.
The equipment is fine and should work as designed and intended by the manufacturer. Centaur carbon is also a higher quality that typical GAC carbon.

We always put a test port between the retention tank and the backwashing filter to monitor free chlorine strength for adjustments. With your present system I wonder if you can do that. Can your pellet feeder destinguish between dealing with and adjusting for 0.5ppm and 5.0ppm iron? Is there a test port between the pellet feeder and the retention tank to check total chlorine?

Being able for the owner to monitor the system may seem to some unnecessary, but most of my customers actually like the ability to understand what's happening to their water and have the ability to adjust treatment to changing conditions.

Here is a schematic (without PCM --intended to handle volumes of untreated water):


Currently there are only two people in the house. It is a 3 bed / 1.5 bath house. Some of the usage info from the softener meter is:
- Maximum flow rate since start up = 11.4 gal/minute
- In operation for 1168 days w/ 153,000 gallons used (131 gallons / day average)
That averages around 65 gallons per person per day. This what many sources suggest as a natioanl average, so your water use is not unusual or exceptional. Your max flow rate may happen on occasions but would not be considered consistent, would you agree?

- Has regenerated 217 times in 1168 days (average every 5.4 days)
Do you have any salt quantities here? I have been informed previously that these are sold to regen every 7-8 days. It appears that this is cleaning itself in excess of that while not factoring in iron removal.

Is there any information I may be missing to see if peroxide is a feasible solution?
What is your water pressure range and size of your pressure tank? Do you ample space at your location or are you struglling for space?

Some of the same equipment you are using now can be used in an H202 system but may need to be serviced and brought back up to capacities.

Do you use much water outside for irrigaion, gardening, etc.?

I noticed the Stenner system you posted. That is a very complete system and all parts may not be needed depending on your water use and intentions. It is a very professional set up and it won't be cheap but it should work as designed.


Thanks - Aaron

Last edited by Andy CWS; 03-02-2010 at 02:21 PM.
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Old 03-02-2010, 10:29 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronF View Post
Gary - Your comments indicate some of the reasons that I am researching alternate systems... I'm sure it works great for some people, but I haven't had the greatest of luck. Like I mentioned, I need something a little more robust that will not get ruined if there is to much or not enough chlorine, especially when the actual feed rate is somewhat unpredictable.
Aaron, you allowed it to run without chlorine for some time.

Its operation has nothing to do with luck. Or it not being as robust as you think it should be.

The feed rate of the chlorine at the minimum setting is all that is needed for your water and you are not taking into account that the mixing tank has a high strength chlorine content as long as there are pellets in the hopper.

That strength cuts down the retention time required and that prevents the need for tighter control of the chlorine dose or a constant dosage.

Run it out of chlorine (or a new system's peroxide) and the carbon must do the job of the chlorine and it will fail, as yours has. Once that starts, nothing you do will revive the system short of replacing the carbon. Go too long you'll ruin the softener's resin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronF View Post
This is one of the reasons I think I would prefer a system that has the ability to accurately control the dose of the oxidizer. Relying strictly on variance in system pressure will not yield consistent results, especially when various amounts of water are being used in each well pump cycle.
I beg to differ and that is based on selling this system for roughly 15 yrs on water such as yours and much worse, including constant feed with hundreds of gals of water periodically going into up to 5000 gal cisterns, or for apartment buildings etc..

The only customers that have had problems are those that let it run out of pellets.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronF View Post
After flushing the retention tank for about a minute, the water runs clear. The first 15-20 seconds are extremely dirty, but after that - clear with chlorine smell. This tells me that it is not necessary to keep flushing water through - right? Run until clear? I don't see the need to flush 20 gallons of chlorinated water down the drain if in fact it is clear...
But if you did the once per month as per my instructions, you'd save 10+ gals of water because a 1 minute run out of a 3/4" line per day for 30 days is using more water (and chlorine), right? Anyway, this isn't going to make the carbon better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronF View Post
The point of this post is to understand more and educate myself and others about treatment systems using peroxide as an alternative to chlorine. Can you add anything to this subject matter? As I mentioned before, I am satisfied with the service you have provided to me and happy with the softener, and respect your industry knowledge. I am not trying to talk others out of or slam the system you sell...
Well I think I am adding a lot to the discussion because if you would replace the carbon as I suggested a month or more ago, you would save yourself maybe $1500+ and a lot of aggravation in researching, buying and installing new equipment that based on what I hear from some dealers that have used peroxide, makes me think it will not work as well as the system you have.

But a solution feeder with peroxide will give you something to micromanage and fiddle with.... but be unlucky and leave it run out of peroxide and you'll ruin your new Centaur carbon filter too.

And be prepared to test your water frequently and adjust the feeder periodically.
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Last edited by Scuba_Dave; 03-02-2010 at 03:36 PM. Reason: Removed negative comment
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Old 03-02-2010, 03:25 PM   #15
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And, here we go again. Andy. It seems to me that the system that you have is either not performing to your expectations or that it requires more maintenance than you are willing to put into it. Either way you and you alone are going to have to make a decision and live with it. I have used peroxide with success on many occasions. The equipment is expensive but it performs well and the particular Stenner set up you are looking at operates on demand so there is not a lot of "fiddling" that needs to be done, though you must maintain chemical. Sorry that your thread is degenerating into the usual argument but it seems to go with the terratory lately.
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