Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Plumbing

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 02-13-2010, 12:47 AM   #16
nap
You talking to me?
 
nap's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: sw mi
Posts: 5,407
Share |
Default

How to anchor toilet flange to porcelain tile?


bob mariani. take a look at this. It does show the flange on top of the overfloor so it is actually not flush:

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-...250406,00.html

http://www.thisoldhouse.com/toh/how-...184647,00.html

as well as this one:

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/PDF/Free/021121078.pdf

and this Q and A site for plumbing says to mount the flange on top of the tile as well.

http://www.plbg.com/forum/read.php?1,427470


to drill floor tiles, I would not use a hammer drill. I would use a drill bit like this:



I do use water to keep it cooled and not run it fast..


Before mounting this thing, I would turn the bowl upside down and using a straight edge across the botton, measure how much clearance there is where the flange and the was ring go to be sure you have adequate space for the flange and will have some wax left to actually seal the toilet to the flange.

nap is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 06:54 AM   #17
Remodeling Contractor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Sandy Hook, CT
Posts: 3,590
Default

How to anchor toilet flange to porcelain tile?


all sites have many opinions and many if not most have incorrect answers. What my opinion supports is that in 90% of the cases it is done this way. To the floor.

what is better about it?
... will work all the time not only with certain toilets
... you do not need to remove the flange to redo the tile
... you have a flat secure surface to attach the flange
... you will not be taking the chance of cracking a tile already in place

The other way.... not one advantage
Bob Mariani is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 08:35 AM   #18
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 719
Default

How to anchor toilet flange to porcelain tile?


Why not just use PVC Glue to glue the flange to the floor pipe and leave it level with the floor once that's done you can install your toilet without cutting anything. JUST KIDDING.

Set the flange in place draw a line around it and use a ceramic high speed bit to remove the tile around the flange then screw the flange to the floor like the others have already stated.
SULTINI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 08:40 AM   #19
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nashua, NH, USA
Posts: 6,867
Default

How to anchor toilet flange to porcelain tile?


Does the toilet fit over the flange and touch the floor all the way around its footprint without having to force it down?

If so then you don't have to redo the flange to be flush with the floor.

Now you do need to drill a few holes through the tile so the flange can be secured to the floor.
__________________
Stop wasting time re-adjusting the pattern. Have several lawn sprinklers, one for each pattern.
AllanJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 08:52 AM   #20
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 719
Default

How to anchor toilet flange to porcelain tile?


Sounds like drilling through the tile is a NO NO.
SULTINI is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 11:42 AM   #21
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Canonsburg, PA (Pittsburgh)
Posts: 430
Default

How to anchor toilet flange to porcelain tile?


Toilet flange installation calls for logical thinking. So...

1. The flange "should NOT set above the finished floor". Why = the toilet may not set properly or seal properly and may crack from the stress.

2. Flange can, but should not set on top of tile. Why = Tile may crack when screwing flange to sub floor, tile will be difficult to replace in the future, however, the toilet will set properly and seal properly.

3. Flange sets on sub floor. Why = Floor can be tiled and re-tiled if necessary, finished floor can be up to 1 1/2" thick and still get a good seal with the proper wax ring.

Since there is no advantage to having the flange on top of the finished floor why would you do that??? So # 2 works but LOGICALLY #3 is the way to do it.

Rege
RegeSullivan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-13-2010, 12:16 PM   #22
Doing it myself
 
Alan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Crescent City, CA
Posts: 3,692
Send a message via AIM to Alan Send a message via MSN to Alan
Default

How to anchor toilet flange to porcelain tile?


Quote:
Originally Posted by SULTINI View Post
Why not just use PVC Glue to glue the flange to the floor pipe and leave it level with the floor once that's done you can install your toilet without cutting anything. JUST KIDDING.

Set the flange in place draw a line around it and use a ceramic high speed bit to remove the tile around the flange then screw the flange to the floor like the others have already stated.
I was just about to type this out after I was done reading.

Agreed.

IF YOU INSIST on having the flange sitting flush or on top of floor level, then make a spacer to sit underneath it before you mount the flange.
__________________
Journeyman Plumber
Alan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-12-2010, 02:26 PM   #23
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: MN
Posts: 17
Default

How to anchor toilet flange to porcelain tile?


Just wrapping up this thread in case a DIYer finds it in a search.

When I installed the flange, I put a lot of silicon caulk under it so water on the floor could not run back under the flange and under the floor.

I drilled through the porcelain tile with a diamond drill bit, not the spear bit pictured above. A diamond drill is essentially a tiny hole saw that grinds through the tile and presents less risk of cracking the tile. I used the lowest RPM possible and kept it wet; the bit never got hot, but it took about 40 minutes per hole. I fastened the toilet flange with stainless steel screws and made sure the threads did not touch the tile.

After installing the flange bolts, I caulked all the holes in the flange with silicon and caulked around the outside edge of the flange. I test-fit the toilet and marked its position with blue painters tape. I put a bead of caulk under where the front half of the toilet would sit (forward of the flange bolts).

I put a 3/4" wax ring on the flange and set the toilet on top of it, then slowly pushed the toilet down (and sat on it) to compress the ring until the toilet was solid. By my calculation, the wax ring was squished from 3/4" to 3/8". I caulked around the front half of the toilet only (if it ever leaks, I want to see the water). I let the toilet sit for three days before hooking up the water and using it, to give the caulk time to set up.

That was several weeks ago. The toilet is still rock solid, does not leak, and there is no sewer smell.

Regarding the toilet flange placement:

In this 22-year-old house, the toilet had previously been installed with the flange flush to the floor. Water had seeped out and rotted part of the subfloor. The flooring was removed, the rotten subfloor was replaced, a new vinyl floor was installed, and the toilet was reinstalled. It leaked again over time and rotted out the subfloor again. Repeat: the toilet was installed twice by professionals using a flange flush to the floor, and both times it leaked. The seepage was concealed between the subfloor and the underlayment and went unnoticed until substantial damage had been done. My neighbor had the same problem with his house of the same age.

When I redid the bathroom, I decided that I wanted to avoid another leak at all costs. I deliberately cut out the old toilet flange and replaced it and the PVC so that the new flange could sit on top of the finished floor. There is one BIG advantage to putting the flange on top of the floor. IT WON'T LEAK!!! The horn of the toilet (the toilet's own built-in flange) projects downward into the PVC flange by at least 1/4". In order for this setup to leak, the water would have to run uphill for at least 1/4" up the side of the flange, and then make it through the wax ring. And even if it did manage this feat, the water would be on top of the finished floor, where I would see it and would know to take action.

When you install the flange flush to the floor, the water runs out of the toilet and down the sides of the wax ring before entering the flange. If there is the tiniest gap anywhere between the wax ring and the flange, the water will seep into it by means of capillary action and it will end up between your subfloor and underlayment where you can't see it. It takes years for it to rot out the subfloor, and you won't know it until the damage is severe.

All authoritative web sites I found (like those quoted by nap above) recommend putting the flange on top of the floor. Here are a few more:
http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ad.php?t=25754
http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/...ead.php?t=7250
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/show...-Flange-Height
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/arch...hp/t-3630.html
http://www.terrylove.com/forums/arch...p/t-22332.html
http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/plumbin...ge-348076.html
http://www.askmehelpdesk.com/plumbin...ht-364948.html
http://www.bobvila.com/wwwboard/messages/258382.html
http://advice.thisoldhouse.com/showthread.php?t=32
http://www.doityourself.com/stry/bathinstallatoilet
http://www.ehow.com/how_5664787_inst...led-floor.html

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_th...e_on_the_floor
http://www.plumbingstore.com/toilet-flanges.html (scroll to the bottom)

I also checked four plumbing books - all showed the flange on top of the floor in their photos. I contacted the maker of the flange, Sioux Chief, and they said it was perfectly OK to put the flange on top of the finished floor and that most modern toilets were designed for it. I checked the installation instructions for Kohler toilets (www.us.kohler.com/onlinecatalog/pdf/1117173_2.pdf) and their diagram shows the flange on top of the finished floor.

Summary:
Authoritative web sites - on top of the finished floor
Plumbing books - on top of the finished floor
Toilet manufacturer - on top of the finished floor
Flange manufacturer - on top of the finished floor
Personal experience - flush with the floor leaks 2 out of 2 times
Logical analysis - on top of the finished floor can't leak
Risk analysis - if flange is on top of the floor, I'll see leaks right away; but if flush with the floor, not until years later

I can't say that flanges should be always be installed on top of the finished floor; maybe there are situations where the flange is best installed flush with the floor. I'm not a plumber. But I can say this: anyone who thinks that it's always wrong, shoddy workmanship, etc. to put the flange on top of the finished floor, or thinks there is no advantage to it, is mistaken and really ought to think it through again before giving advice.

Last edited by bobmg; 03-12-2010 at 02:59 PM.
bobmg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2010, 11:18 AM   #24
Doing it myself
 
Alan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Crescent City, CA
Posts: 3,692
Send a message via AIM to Alan Send a message via MSN to Alan
Default

How to anchor toilet flange to porcelain tile?


Just FYI, we installed a toilet the other day that was set on a flange installed ON TOP of the finished floor. It did not work properly. We had to put wedges all around the toilet to get it up high enough so that there was still wax between the porcelain and the flange. Otherwise all the wax would have squished out and the base of the toilet would have been floating 1/4" in the air.

It does not ALWAYS work.

Also in regards to the wax ring leaking, if the toilet is set properly and the bowl CANNOT MOVE, the wax ring will stay intact for thousands of years. (exaggeration I know). When there is movement for the bowl, the wax ring works itself loose over time and it leaks. You will have the same situation whether the flange is on top of the subfloor or on top of the finished floor. Worse on top of finished floor IMO because you are not secured to the material directly BELOW your flange, but through that material and two others before you get a solid bite into the subfloor.

I'm not saying its wrong, but I definitely wouldn't do it that way, nor have I encountered any scenarios where it would be better that way. Good luck to you.
__________________
Journeyman Plumber

Last edited by Alan; 03-13-2010 at 11:23 AM.
Alan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2012, 01:56 PM   #25
Newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 7
Default

How to anchor toilet flange to porcelain tile?


Quote:
Originally Posted by bobmg View Post
I searched the web beforehand and found the question of flange height posted dozens of times in various forums.
I know this post is almost two years old, but me, too. I found pictures of some flush with finished and some over top. This is the first thread I've seen where most seem to say have it sit flush. Just yesterday reading at Lowes in a Black & Decker book on plumbing it showed a flange beautifully placed above a white tile floor But later in another picture it was flush.

That said, I am tiling a bathroom now and the new toilet I bought from Lowes (Jacuzzi Maxima) will not fit with the flange over top of finished floor. I was about to do it like that and with the toilet upside down I confirmed that my flange, if it's on top of finished tile will not let my toilet seat properly--and that's before even any wax is there. So having it on top of finished tile would be completely wrong. I'm using an inside-3" flange (since I failed when pouring the concrete drains to leave space to put an around-3" and I have no interest in chipping away--, but the toilet outlet is smaller than the inside-3" anyway so no loss) but I don't think it is much or at all higher than a regular flange. In my case, I could fit the toilet if the flange protrudes a bit above finish-flush, but resting on top it just won't fit unless I have the entire toilet lifted at all edges.

I redid a bathroom in my house last year and the flange was flush with the plywood subfloor! So, it sat below finished floor, and the previous guy had (successfully) simply used a jumbo wax ring. There are flange extenders, though.

Again, old thread, but the pipe I ran is totally surrounded by concrete and is not moving anywhere, ever. I have no intention of securing the flange to anything except with the primed + glued PVC cement. It would be completely redundant to then screw into the concrete.

In post #23 OP has certainly proven that many people do recommend above finished floor and I'd never argue with this old house. I do know that in my case it wouldn't have worked, though; even with no wax the toilet just would not have sat on the floor. Evidently Alan found the same case in post #24.

I wonder if toilets are being designed differently. I find it hard to believe, but not all even work with the flange over finished, so putting it flush is safer, though as OP mentions it could invite higher change of failure in very certain scenarios, but generally unlikely ones or else we'd not still be using wax rings for this, or relying on them to keep sewer gas out of the house.

Last edited by Skoorb; 01-16-2012 at 01:59 PM.
Skoorb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2012, 07:00 PM   #26
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: pa
Posts: 4,275
Default

How to anchor toilet flange to porcelain tile?


30 yrs in the plumbing field...we always secure to sub floor...tile around it...now you can set your flange hammer drill through tile so screws hit sub floor..you will be ok...ben
ben's plumbing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2012, 07:45 PM   #27
DIY staff
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Kane county,Illinois
Posts: 21,295
Default

How to anchor toilet flange to porcelain tile?


What he said!!!!
__________________
New members: Adding your location to your profile helps in many ways.--M--
oh'mike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-16-2012, 09:55 PM   #28
moderator
 
TheEplumber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Idaho
Posts: 6,618
Default

How to anchor toilet flange to porcelain tile?


I guess I'm just a lucky guy.. Twenty something years ago I was taught to put put flanges on top of the floor for 2 reasons- my journeyman and code said so. Since I was a good little apprentice, I did it. We even installed spacers to accommodate for underlayment. I can only remember a few times the toilet didn't sit well. Odd, these instances have only been in the last few years. Maybe the toilet designs are changing...
TheEplumber is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to TheEplumber For This Useful Post:
ben's plumbing (01-17-2012)
Old 01-16-2012, 10:23 PM   #29
Doing it myself
 
Alan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Crescent City, CA
Posts: 3,692
Send a message via AIM to Alan Send a message via MSN to Alan
Default

How to anchor toilet flange to porcelain tile?


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheEplumber View Post
Maybe the toilet designs are changing...
I'm pretty sure they are. I'm noticing it more and more.

__________________
Journeyman Plumber
Alan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-30-2012, 11:09 AM   #30
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 5
Default

How to anchor toilet flange to porcelain tile?


Perhaps the tile guy shouldn't have laid the tile so close to the flange so that you're stuck with this problem. A hammer drill with fresh masonry bit should do the trick at this point.

Try and get your hands on some Johnny Shims. They lock in place and do a great job protecting tile floors. I wouldn't use those little soft square shims. I've had those squish down and work their way out.

Here's a link http://ezshim.com/products/johnnyshi...-a-toilet.html

Hope this helps.


[quote=bobmg;398696]I just had porcelain tile installed on my bathroom floor. that plumbers just use silicon caulk to "glue" the flange to the floor tile.

Does that sound right? I don't want the toilet moving around and cracking the PVC pipe over time. But I'm also not too excited about drilling through the tile.

Dave Holland is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Toilet Flange Problem - New Tile Floor w/ Ditra qwkslvr Flooring 4 10-14-2009 10:04 PM
tile saw advice for 24" porcelain tiles diy'er on LI Tiling, ceramics, marble 12 10-11-2009 03:34 PM
porcelain tile questions gramps416 Flooring 4 01-04-2009 07:54 AM
Bathroom Floor - Tile - floor Height - Flange DoItYourSelfer5 Flooring 2 12-15-2008 06:18 PM
tile and toilet flange question rbaggett Plumbing 2 11-13-2008 04:43 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.