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Old 10-28-2011, 06:53 AM   #1
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????


I have another thread on here about how to plumb a washer and utility sink into an existing 4" stack. My plan was to run 2" horizontally to pick up the laundry sink and washer after tying into the stack.

I talked with our local inspector here in Ohio and he said that any horizontal run to the stack after the washer standpipe has to be at least 3". He said the standpipe can be 2" but the horizontal run to the stack has to be at least 3"

I checked into the Ohio Administrative Code 4101:3 Board of Building Standards: Ohio Plumbing Code Chapter 4101:3-4 Fittings and this is what it states for clothes washers:



AUTOMATIC CLOTHES WASHERS

406.3 Waste connection. The waste from an automatic clothes washer shall discharge through an air break into a standpipe in accordance with Section 802.4 or into a laundry sink. The trap and fixture drain for an automatic clothes washer standpipe shall be a minimum of 2 inches (51 mm) in diameter. The automatic clothes washer fixture drain shall connect to a branch drain or drainage stack a minimum of 3 inches (76 mm) in diameter. Automatic clothes washers that discharge by gravity shall be permitted to drain to a waste receptor or an approved trench drain.

So I wonder if running the 2" horizontally after the standpipe into the 4" stack will satisfy this code since the code says, "fixture drain shall connect to a branch drain or drainage stack a minimum of 3 inches (76 mm) in diameter."

The "or" part gets me. Looks like you have to connect into a branch drain OR stack of at least 3". well I'll be connecting into a 4" stack. I can't imaging I would need 3" for the run to the stack. How do you interpret this?


In the photo disreagrd the fittings they are not final yet. Just address the "green horizontal" run the will pick up the standpipe and sink then terminate into the stack.

Thanks.
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????-smaller-pic-green-branch-3-line.jpg   Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????-smaller-pic-green-branch-3-line-laundry-stub-shown-no-vent-above-sant.jpg  


Last edited by hammerlane; 10-28-2011 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 10-28-2011, 07:27 AM   #2
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????


I'm in new england (go Pats!), so I don't know code in Ohio. But ultimately, the only interpretation of your state code that matters is the local inspector's - unless you want to go over his head to either the local building inspector (if he even has the power to overrule the plumbing inspector), or to the state board. It's probably not worth fighting.

I'm guessing he wants the wye that picks up the sink drain (and acts as a vent for the washing machine - "#2" in your picture) to be 3x3x2 and everything downstream of it to be 3" to the 4" stack. You can probably do a 3x2 bushing in the upstream end of that wye and go 2" to the WM trap. The way I'm interpreting the code section you referenced is that if the WM drain ran by itself (without combining with other fixture drains), then it could be 2" all the way to the 4" stack. But since you're also picking up a utility sink along the way, that portion of the branch drain must be increased to 3".

P.S. - Yes you do need the vent to continue upward, but you can't just tie it in higher up the waste stack - it has to be tied into a vent, or run up through the roof on its own. Again...maybe in Ohio they'll let you use an AAV (mechanical vent) - they're not allowed here without pre-approval from the State Board of Plumbers & Gasfitters (and that rarely happens).


Last edited by Ishmael; 10-28-2011 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 10-28-2011, 07:54 AM   #3
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????


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Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post
Yes you do need the vent to continue upward, but you can't just tie it in higher up the waste stack - it has to be tied into a vent, or run up through the roof on its own.
The 4" stack in the photo is servicing only 2 floor drains in my garage. You can see about 7 feet up on the stack where the 4" San-T ties in to pick up the floor drains. On top of this 4" San-T is a bushing for the 2". The 2" serves as a vent. This is the vent I was planning on tieing into for the laundry sink / washer standpipe set-up. No other fixtures in the house drain into this stack above where you see the San-T picking up the garage floor drains. Its all venting above that. So would it be OK to tie in as I propose for venting?

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Old 10-28-2011, 08:06 AM   #4
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????


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Originally Posted by hammerlane View Post
The 4" stack in the photo is servicing only 2 floor drains in my garage. You can see about 7 feet up on the stack where the 4" San-T ties in to pick up the floor drains. On top of this 4" San-T is a bushing for the 2". The 2" serves as a vent. This is the vent I was planning on tieing into for the laundry sink / washer standpipe set-up. No other fixtures in the house drain into this stack above where you see the San-T picking up the garage floor drains. Its all venting above that. So would it be OK to tie in as I propose for venting?

Thanks
If you're sure it's only a vent, you can use it but the tee has to be a minimum of 6" above the flood level rim of any fixture on that 4" horizontal waste pipe that comes through the foundation wall. So if that 4" pipe also serves as a drain for a sink somewhere in the house, and the rim of that sink is 36" above the 1st floor, then the new vent has to be tied in 42" above the first floor (minimum).
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Old 10-28-2011, 08:46 AM   #5
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????


My interpretation of your code: pipe labeled #2 (fixture drain) needs to be 3" After the vertical vent its called a fixture trap arm. It should be 2"
So you will need a 4x3 san tee or combo at the stack and a 3x2x2 combo for the washer wet vent.
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Old 10-28-2011, 09:33 AM   #6
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????


Are they referring to Fixture drain as a trap arm? Because I would think they would say trap arm if that's what they meant.



That's totally different from my code, and I Don't know their definition of fixture drain, but I would say that from the standpipe and trap to the vent is considered your trap arm, and from the vent to the stack is the fixture drain since no other fixtures are tied into it.

Now if there WERE other fixtures tied into the drain beyond the vent, then yes, I would say that it needs to be 3" at that point where they tie together, and I think this is for suds relief.

To reiterate : It doesn't really matter what we think it says (i think he's wrong and some of those guys are just asses) whatever he says is the final word is what needs to happen.
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Old 10-28-2011, 09:34 AM   #7
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????


Just as a note...The 4" stack in the photo is servicing only 2 floor drains in my garage. You can see about 7 feet up on the stack where the 4" San-T ties in to pick up the floor drains. On top of this 4" San-T is a bushing for the 2". The 2" serves as a vent. This is the vent I was planning on tieing into for the laundry sink / washer standpipe set-up. No other fixtures in the house drain into this stack above where you see the San-T picking up the garage floor drains. Its all venting above that.

See new photo

Thanks
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Old 10-28-2011, 09:34 AM   #8
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????


If I had more time i'd draw pictures.

look up definitions. See what they define as a "Fixture Drain"

That's the important part IMO.
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Old 10-28-2011, 10:32 AM   #9
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????


2" vent needs to tie in 6" above the flood rim of the floor drain.
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Old 10-28-2011, 11:54 AM   #10
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan View Post
If I had more time i'd draw pictures.

look up definitions. See what they define as a "Fixture Drain"

That's the important part IMO.
Ohio Administrative Code:
FIXTURE DRAIN. The drain from the trap of a fixture to a junction with any other drain pipe.

Alan if you could sketch a drawing I'd appreciate it.
I'll post a blank photo here if you want to copy and draw on it.

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2" vent needs to tie in 6" above the flood rim of the floor drain.
If the vents for my sink/washer needs to tie in above the flood rim of the highest fixture on the vent the highest fixture on this vent are the garage floor drains.
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Last edited by hammerlane; 10-28-2011 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 10-28-2011, 11:56 AM   #11
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????


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Originally Posted by Ishmael View Post
If you're sure it's only a vent, you can use it but the tee has to be a minimum of 6" above the flood level rim of any fixture on that 4" horizontal waste pipe that comes through the foundation wall. So if that 4" pipe also serves as a drain for a sink somewhere in the house, and the rim of that sink is 36" above the 1st floor, then the new vent has to be tied in 42" above the first floor (minimum).
This venting is kind of making sense now but is a POA(Pain In ***)
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Old 10-28-2011, 12:08 PM   #12
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????


Whenever you have to ask yourself "is it needed?" - it's usually good to just do it regardless of *code*

It might not be required by *code* - but it would be beneficial considering the purpose of the vent pipe itself - all of my sink drains are vented separately from the toilet line (etc) because it prevents over-taxing the vent line . . .we're septic, though - so we have a heaftier dose of gases to deal with which also led to doubling the P-traps for each sink as well.
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Old 10-28-2011, 08:45 PM   #13
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????


Quote:
Originally Posted by hammerlane View Post
Ohio Administrative Code:
FIXTURE DRAIN. The drain from the trap of a fixture to a junction with any other drain pipe.

Alan if you could sketch a drawing I'd appreciate it.
I'll post a blank photo here if you want to copy and draw on it.
Sounds like you answered your own question with this one anyway, no need for a drawing. Just for fun, look up the definition of TRAP ARM and see what they say, even though I already know the answer.

Then based off of these definitions you should be able to size your piping accordingly.

Since there are no other drains tied in between the 3" stack and your clothes washer, the piping downstream of the vent is your fixture drain. Judging by the original excerpt from the code that you posted, that section should be allowed to be 2" To clarify, starting at the clotheswasher you have : Standpipe -> P-trap - > Trap arm -> vent -> Fixture drain -> Branch drain or stack.

Make sense?

I'd print all these sections out, and show him that you understand what you're looking at, and get his input on why he wants it to be 3". If he says it must be, then that's his call, but the way the code reads, a 2" is well within reason.
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Old 10-28-2011, 08:47 PM   #14
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????


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Whenever you have to ask yourself "is it needed?" - it's usually good to just do it regardless of *code*
Actually my codebook says (regarding drainage) that no pipe shall be over sized to the point where it's self scouring purposes are no longer effective. (something to this nature anyway)

Over sizing is not always better.
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Old 10-28-2011, 09:17 PM   #15
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Horizontal Washer Drain AFTER Standpipe 3 inch??????


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Actually my codebook says (regarding drainage) that no pipe shall be over sized to the point where it's self scouring purposes are no longer effective. (something to this nature anyway)

Over sizing is not always better.
I didn't mean "bigger" - I just meant that having a 2nd vent pipe might not be a bad idea.

Unless I misunderstood his initial question there. (I think I did)

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