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Old 06-16-2009, 01:27 PM   #1
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hired licensed plumber - not sure about safety of job performed...


Hi,

I used to have my own contracting business and did my share of plumbing, although I never felt comfortable with gas lines. Did neat water line work. I'm now retired.

My son bought a home recently and is remodeling the kitchen. The gas line was brought up under a cabinet 13" from the wall, and then did a couple of 90 bends to make it to the back of the stove. We discovered that this was because of an error - a cold air return was in the way and took up the space from the furthest stud of that wall (in the next room) to where they brought up the gas line.

We hired a licensed plumber to come in. He used yellow cssd I believe, and went right through the cold air return, then came up through a floor sleeve. He said this was approved for use in these situations.

I'm concerned about it and looking for advice as to if it's safe, or if this is blatantly against code and someone else should have a look.

thanks

olddoug

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Old 06-16-2009, 05:09 PM   #2
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hired licensed plumber - not sure about safety of job performed...


http://www.gastite.com/include/langu...dfs/Plenum.pdf (Warning, PDF).

According to Gastite (a mfr. of CSST), ducts are a no-go.

Maybe your local codes allow it.

It sounds like a hack job to me, though. The guy is probably out right now notching out 3/4s of a floor joist to get an elbow in for a toilet.

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Old 06-16-2009, 05:10 PM   #3
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Uniform Plumbing code 2006 states

1211.2.5 Prohibited Locations. Gas lines inside any building shall not be installed in or through circulating air duct, clothes chute, chimney or gas vent, ventilating duct, dumb waiter, or elevator shaft.

Think about if a gas leak happens in the return air and it is circulated in the duct.

Call the "Plumber" back and have him show you where in code it is allowed. If you don't get a response notify local codes office for an inspection.

Was a permit pulled?
Here if I replace or install more than five feet of pipe I have to pull a permit
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:01 PM   #4
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I thought this sounded odd and was worried for the family's safety, good thing I checked. Tell me, does this code apply to all states? I'm in PA. I want to be able to quote the code when I talk to him.

He said that this used to be the case, but that this newfangled flexpipe with yellow coating was rated for this, whatever that means.
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:13 PM   #5
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Code for plumbing is kind'da funny and it all depends on your local jurisdiction. I am licensed in two counties and seven cities. Six cities use Uniform plumbing code 2006 and one city uses International Plumbing Code 2006. While depending on your state such as Texas and Illinois have there own plumbing code. I have read some of Illnois code and it is pretty much like UPC 2006. The IPC was based off the UPC.

Basically what I am saying is that this is pretty much universal to all plumbing codes with gas.

By googling PA Plumbing Code it appears the PA has adopted the International Code.
Here is a like to the PA Codes

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/03...3/s403.21.html

The International Fuel Gas Code applies here
Section 404 Piping System Installation
404.1 states Piping shall not be installed in or through circulating air duct, clothes chute, chimney or gas vent, ventilating duct, dumb waiter, or elevator shaft.

Hope this helps
Be sure to tell this guy that you don't like the way he didn't take your families health and welfare into his condersation.

Being a Master Plumber/Mechanical/Gas Fitter I always make every effort to take my customers health, safety and life to heart. I think this guy is just plain lazy. There is always away to do it right..the first time because there might not be a second chance.

The yellow coated flex pipe is called Tracpipe and there is no gas pipe rated to go through any duct as stated in code. The duct starts to vibrate and rubs a pin hole in the pipe..A gas leak is a gas leak. The wall on tracpipe is thinner that black sch40 pipe and black pipe is not allowed in duct.

Last edited by Plumber101; 06-16-2009 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:51 PM   #6
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I really appreciate the help, guys. Thank you very much.

My son (28) and his wife would surely thank you as well.

I have emailed the plumber and hope to get a response soon. Unfortunately, It looks like there is no way to run gas to this wall because of the cold air return running the whole length of the wall. I suppose electric could go through the air return, so I suppose they'll be "cooking with electric".
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:50 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by olddug View Post
I really appreciate the help, guys. Thank you very much.

My son (28) and his wife would surely thank you as well.

I have emailed the plumber and hope to get a response soon. Unfortunately, It looks like there is no way to run gas to this wall because of the cold air return running the whole length of the wall. I suppose electric could go through the air return, so I suppose they'll be "cooking with electric".
I don't think anything is allowed to penetrate an HVAC duct.
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Old 06-19-2009, 01:52 PM   #8
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hired licensed plumber - not sure about safety of job performed...


Quote:
Originally Posted by fireguy View Post
I don't think anything is allowed to penetrate an HVAC duct.
The NEC allows for most metallic-shielded wiring methods in environmental air ducts (MC, EMT, RMC, etc), but I'm not sure about how the penetrations are handled.

Penetrations are definitely allowed though. (For temp/air quality sensors, baffle motors, etc).

This is one of those times I think the AHJ might have a lot to say on the issue, because it combines regulations for both electrical systems and HVAC duct systems... Or it might say nothing at all.
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:45 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottR View Post
The NEC allows for most metallic-shielded wiring methods in environmental air ducts (MC, EMT, RMC, etc), but I'm not sure about how the penetrations are handled.

Penetrations are definitely allowed though. (For temp/air quality sensors, baffle motors, etc).

This is one of those times I think the AHJ might have a lot to say on the issue, because it combines regulations for both electrical systems and HVAC duct systems... Or it might say nothing at all.
I will have to double check but the last time I remembered electrical was not allowed in supply duct but was allowed in a return chase and not a duct.

Can you provide NEC section that I may look at that states you can run (EMT, AC ) inside duct.

There also guidelines as to the penetrations of dampers, sensors or any device in reguards to smoke and fire sealing..try looking at the mechanical code.
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Old 06-20-2009, 01:36 AM   #10
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hired licensed plumber - not sure about safety of job performed...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumber101 View Post
Can you provide NEC section that I may look at that states you can run (EMT, AC ) inside duct.
My mistake, MC not AC.

300.22(B) - MI, MC, EMT, FMT, IMC and RMC are permitted in environmental air ducts and plenums.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plumber101 View Post
There also guidelines as to the penetrations of dampers, sensors or any device in reguards to smoke and fire sealing..try looking at the mechanical code.
Yup, that's why I stuck that last paragraph in my post.. I'm not too familiar with anything but the NEC, so I imagine there's more to it, especially with all the possible jurisdictions..

I did not mean that any and all penetrations were allowed, just that there are cases where it is permissible.
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Old 06-20-2009, 05:41 PM   #11
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Thanks Scott,

I am not that familiar with the NEC either thats why asked. Thanks for the reply. I just know that codes here will allow wiring in the return but not in the supply
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Old 06-20-2009, 07:04 PM   #12
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If in doubt call your local plumbing or gas inspector. better to be safe than sorry later.
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Old 06-20-2009, 08:24 PM   #13
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Just an added note, a lot of states are now requiring bonding the gas line before it enters the house with #6 copper to the grounding electrode system.
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Old 06-21-2009, 08:31 AM   #14
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hired licensed plumber - not sure about safety of job performed...


Olddug,
I don't know your codes but I'm sure that the code issue is resolved. I do however do a lot of piping, often in kitchens. If the reno is still in progress, check to see if code allows for the gas line to run under your cabinets in the kick plate area.This may allow access to the stove without compromising the cold air return.

Post a few pics here from above and below noting the supply location and stove area.

I use 2" rigid vac pipe and rarely get stumped but it annoys me when I see someone with small flex pie taking shortcuts. Black pipe installations were an art where I find he new flex is too often used by a hack the way you have described. There are still craftsmen out there who will take the time and plan your job right and adhere to code in the process.
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Old 06-21-2009, 10:56 AM   #15
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Some gas codes do not allow fittings, especially unions, to be in concealed spaces. Don't forget the leak test.

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