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Old 04-18-2009, 09:54 PM   #1
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Electronic Water Conditioner?


DH and I were at a home and garden expo type thing this afternoon and saw a booth for an electronic water conditioner. Apparently the thing is supposed to produce an electronic field in the pipes and not only keep the calcium and minerals from building up in pipes, but will with time remove old scale.

We have been in this house two years. It came with a water softener which I feed infrequently, and never really understood. This new system sounds like a much better solution, but it also sounds much to good to be true.

Anyone have any experience with these? Do they really work?

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Old 04-19-2009, 10:01 AM   #2
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Electronic Water Conditioner?


Follow this link. anyone own a pelican?

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Old 04-19-2009, 11:15 AM   #3
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Here's how report them:

Observation: (FYI) This property is equipped with what appears to be a "Magnetic Water Treatment" (MWT) accessory.

Analysis: There are no formal standards governing the specification, installation or maintenance of such devices. Opinion as to their effectiveness is divided, for example see sources (pro and con) cited here: http://www.chem1.com/CQ/magscams.html.


---------

Home Inspection: "A business with illogically high liability, slim profit margins and limited economies of scale. An incredibly diverse, multi-disciplined consulting service, delivered under difficult in-field circumstances, before a hostile audience in an impossibly short time frame, requiring the production of an extraordinarily detailed technical report, almost instantly, without benefit of research facilities or resources." - Alan Carson
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Old 04-19-2009, 11:42 AM   #4
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Electronic Water Conditioner?


Thanks for the links!

Considering electroplating and the such, it seemed within the realm of possibility, but I guess I'll keep my checkbook in my pocket for now.

I might check out that "build one yourself" link when I have more time.
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Old 06-24-2009, 01:54 PM   #5
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Electronic Water Conditioner?


The answer is ... some. lol.
The only way some work is if the water is flowing 24 hours a day, and then and ONLY then does magnetic or electric softeners work.

The only product that is worth mentioning for household use is Hydropath technology. It is not a "wire" or "magnet" - it is an eco-friendly alternative to salt water softeners. In Canada its HydroFlow (www.hydroflowcanada.com), and in the USA its HydroCare (www.hydrocareus.com) .
**********
It's really amusing to read what people say about similar products, especially the "salt-softener sales people"... It wont be long until North America has a complete ban on salt softeners, BABY STEPS - one state at a time!

http://www.santa-clarita.com/cityhal...orides_res.asp

***********************
I completely support companies who wish to change the future through protecting our environment. P.S. I also used to own a potassium chloride softener - and I would always forget to fill it - not to mention break my back carry the damm thing!

***************************** have a great day!
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Old 06-24-2009, 01:58 PM   #6
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Electronic Water Conditioner?


Personally I like this one..

Vitalized Water Products

It takes the cake.

Quote:
but it also sounds much to good to be true.
^^ I tend to agree with that. If a device isn't performing any direct chemical or physical action on the water, then IMO there's a 99.9% chance that it's hooey.
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Old 06-24-2009, 02:58 PM   #7
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Electronic Water Conditioner?


I wonder how long my coffee maker will last with all that scale run through it? Does PVC and PEX carry those magic RF signals? Should we take serious any environmental regulations passed in California? Do softeners produce anywhere near the amount of chlorine that the city dumps in the drinking supply? Could some of these posts be scam?
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Old 06-24-2009, 09:36 PM   #8
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Electronic Water Conditioner?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Ed View Post
The answer is ... some. lol.
The only way some work is if the water is flowing 24 hours a day, and then and ONLY then does magnetic or electric softeners work.

The only product that is worth mentioning for household use is Hydropath technology. It is not a "wire" or "magnet" - it is an eco-friendly alternative to salt water softeners. In Canada its HydroFlow (www.hydroflowcanada.com), and in the USA its HydroCare (www.hydrocareus.com) .
**********
It's really amusing to read what people say about similar products, especially the "salt-softener sales people"... It wont be long until North America has a complete ban on salt softeners, BABY STEPS - one state at a time!

http://www.santa-clarita.com/cityhal...orides_res.asp

***********************
I completely support companies who wish to change the future through protecting our environment. P.S. I also used to own a potassium chloride softener - and I would always forget to fill it - not to mention break my back carry the damm thing!

***************************** have a great day!
And it sounds like you sell these things. They are not water softeners and they are no different than other electronic anti scale/descalers expect they don't wrap wires around the pipe, they wrap themselves around the pipe.

Magnets wire wrappers and these and other electronic things are not water softeners, they don't remove hardness from water. I sell softeners and because there is nothing else that actually removes hardness, they will be around for a long time. Maybe you haven't heard the outcome of the Santa Clarita CA ban. People are very upset.
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Old 10-21-2010, 02:02 PM   #9
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Electronic Water Conditioner?


As someone said on a different board, “When did you last encounter magnetic chalk?” This method of separating the consumer from their money has been going on for a long, long time, starting about the late 1800’s from what I could discover.

Calcium Carbonate (lime scale) is not magnetic (diamagnetic) and thus is unaffected by these consumer electromagnetic devices at all, in any way. Anyone wanting to verify this can scrape some (as much as you want) of the lime scale buildup out of their water line and mix it in a glass beaker of water (no cheating with iron particles from your rusty old radiators), place any magnetic or electric field (of any frequency you wish to generate) close by and see if the calcium carbonate dissolves, is attracted/repelled by, or in any way is affected by said magnetic or electric fields. Even after weeks of exposure, I think you'll get the same results I did, exactly no change in the solids/solution.

Now about that electromagnetic field penetrating those copper pipes… Are we to believe that if we stand in a copper lined room with a radio that it will still receive signals from outside? In industry these are called “shielded rooms” and are used to ensure that absolutely no electromagnetic influences come in to, or escape from, the room… used for testing devices like your computer, television, cell phone, etc. Now we shouldn’t get confused with “eddy” currents (Google for "eddy currents in copper" just for fun!) from one of your old high school experiments (Lenz's law), because if the calcium carbonate was affected by the eddy currents, then it should be slowing down as it passes through the field, not exactly the results claimed for these devices...

As several posters have alluded, anything that is not consistently reproducible is not related to our physical world, and therefore should be treated with extreme skepticism.

Now what about those patents? You can patent anything even if it does not work, have a look at these typical electrical/magnetic "water conditioning" devices starting in 1927…

U.S. Patents

1773275 (1926), at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/1773275.html
2596743 (1946), at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2596743.html
2652925 (1949), at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/2652925.html
5074998 (1991), at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5074998.html
5776334 (1998) at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5776334.html
and 5667677 (1997) at http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5667677.html

are indicative of the stuff you can find (and it has been going on for a long time!) if you start digging.

If this "technology" actually works, ever wonder why all the big wholesale/hardware/retail chain stores are not selling it and the government/military won't use it? Of course, there is a lot of money to be made in this business, so no amount of evidence will convince many people that they have been "had" by some smooth talking sales pitch, complete with psuedo-scientific sounding double-speak.

To reiterate, anyone who works with electricity knows that a moving electric field generates a moving magnetic field and vice versa (Maxwell's equations), so since lime scale is non-magnetic, there is not a chance those electrically or magnetically operated devices will work. Research with high energy levels (as in high energy particle physics) does indicate that one can affect molecular chemistry temporarily for a very short distance/time, but not everyone would be happy with an MRI type machine in their home. Thus, in the real world of domestic scale control/reduction, only filters, chemical or ion exchange type systems will perform effectively, safely and reproducibly.

For those interested in some real world testing of these types of device by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, go to http://www.cecer.army.mil/techreport...cDescalers.pdf and remember to look at page 34. As those who are web wise know, the “.mil” domain is exclusive to the U.S. Department of Defense, so this is not a “BS” site purporting scientific gibberish.

For those who are interested, simple explanations of magnetism are at http://www.worsleyschool.net/science...magnetism.html .

Hope this "tome" is of some assistance to those who like to do their research before spending their hard earned cash…
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:15 PM   #10
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Electronic Water Conditioner?


Nice bit of research there and if you need more, contact me, I have file cabinets full. I will tell you though that even though these things are pure and unadulterated snake oil, they have indeed been around a long time and suckers will continue to purchase them from savvy salesmen. And as far as I am concerned let them. Anyone that wants to waste money on useless crap has the right to. If not then I probably wouldn't own half the crap that I do

I am a bit upset that Hannity is hawking Easy Water though. I emailed him but apparently Easy Waters advertising dollars speak louder than I do.

Hey, have you all heard? You can now get TV signals... over the air. Imagine that, broadcast TV. No more cable, all you need is an antenna
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:48 AM   #11
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Electronic Water Conditioner?


NHMaster... It is a sad thing that hucksters are still peddling snake oil, but we as individuals can seek solace in the fact that even big companies get taken for suckers, do you see the similarity to Hydropath/care at this Weatherford "Clearwell" site?... http://www.weatherford.com/ECMWEB/gr.../WFT100054.pdf . Of course, having seen all the methods of encouraging you to part with your money, I'm wondering if maybe there's room for a new huckster in town. I know for sure that I won't go to jail, will never get prosecuted or charged, plus I'll make a fortune off my non-functional product and even get positive endorsements from some of the people that I flogged! It does not get much better than that......

Last edited by enb54; 10-22-2010 at 08:44 AM. Reason: Spelling
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Old 01-21-2012, 07:06 AM   #12
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Electronic Water Conditioner?


I'll introduce myself in the 'right place'. (1)

I joined because the site looks great and I happened into this thread from a Google search.

About electronic water conditioning
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...r_conditioning

That article says it's not well supported scientifically.
That's a bit of a surprise to me.
Through my interest in material processing I thought I'd read a legitimate,
referenced (6) article about the use of electronic 'descalers' in use in
large industrial 'processes'.

Where water is heated and lost to evaporation scale builds up.

Now I think we use deionized water in a sealed system.
That ensures it's not lost, thus there's no calcium carbonate,
CaCO3, to build up. I'll use CaCO3 for "calcium carbonate".

Many materials are paramagnetic (look it up). CaCO3 could be or not. I haven't looked.
If it is then an electronic descaler could work. It might be tuned to the resonant frequency
of CaCO2 so the molecule shakes and causes it to redissolve or 'unstick' it from a surface.
Every molecule just like every piece of machinery has a resonance.
The effect is used in 'absorption spectroscopy' to identify chemicals.
When light shakes a chemical some light is absorbed. We measure it and
know what the chemical is and how much there is.

About CaCO3 in water and how it was removed from pipes in a unique way.
SOME FUN (or useful) INFORMATION

Calcium carbonate is what seashells are made of. It can coat the inside
of pipes and reduce their volume. Keeping it solution, usually water is
the way to avoid this. CaCO3 comes from CO2 in the air that is dissolved
in the ocean water. (5)

It was about 2009 when I watched a short bit in a science show
about a woman scientist who asked, "Why do seashells stop growing? (in clams)"


This is how I remember it.
A chemical secreted by the clam caused calcium carbonate
to stop sticking to the old shell surface. (This could be misinformation) (2)
A bacteria was modified to create the chemical OR the chemical itself was
included in the process and the CaCO3 stopped sticking.

The reason the work was done is that acids were commonly
used to dissolve scale in pipes and plant operators were trying to find
less toxic answer to the problem.


(1) I saw a chance to contribute. Even though the thread is old.
i came here others could 'fall in' here via Google and I wanted to contribute right away.


(2) I encourage you to search for the research yourself if you're very interested.
If I find it I'll come back and add it to this post.

(3) The search below associates paramagnatism with "calcium carbonate".
If there is research to support the use of a magnetic field to keep CaC03
in solution it's probably in this search here:

i.e. put this into google

paramagnetism OR paramagnetic "calcium carbonate"

https://www.google.com/webhp?complete=0&hl=en#hl=en&complete=0&q=paramagn etism+OR+paramagnetic+"calcium+carbonate"




(5)
If you're interested about calcification and 'water' (seawater in this article) see here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_a...#Calcification

(6) Articles written by scientific researchers in legitimate places like universities or research labs who write papers
which are peer reviewed


Kindest regards,
Andre in CA, USA

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