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Old 11-04-2010, 12:35 PM   #1
Oya
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Compression tank needed? I dont think so. but not a pro


Here's the setup. Looking to create an all inclusive point of use water system. The use is for a shampoo sink in a small 1 person salon. The room has no access to plumbing from the rest of the builiding and landlord is hessitant to allow demo for running water lines.

Im thinking of using an open top 20 gallon holding tank for fresh water, this would have a spout at the bottom wich would gravity feed the water to a 120 v water pump. The pump would send the water to a point of use tankless electric water heater. If the sink is not on the water pump would push the water back into the holding tank.
Otherwise, while the sink is on, the electric water heater would send hot/warm water to the sink. Sink would drain into a seperate waste tank. No cold water, we would rely on the temperature controls on the water heater to maintain 100-105 degree temp. This would only be used to wash a clients hair.


Hows this sound... would it work?

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Old 11-04-2010, 07:23 PM   #2
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Compression tank needed? I dont think so. but not a pro


If you mounted the holding tank near the ceiling you may get enough gravity flow so as not to need a pump or pressure tank.

I am pretty sure it would still be illegal. The water would not be pure enough to wash with.

In addition, if the system ran out of water, the water heater would self destruct from power on while not filled.

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Old 11-05-2010, 11:54 AM   #3
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Compression tank needed? I dont think so. but not a pro


Thanks for your reply, Allan.

The water would come from a faucet near by, we would just refill the tank daily, so its tap water- as clean as any salon. The tank will only be around 15 gallons and only a few feet off the ground so it can be refilled as needed.
All of this would be in cabinets so as to not look like a lab experiment

The pump is a ShurFlo RV 115 volt model, used in RV's for point of use sinks. It is designed to recognize when it should be operating, ie when the sink is on so it doesnt run an run and keep cycling. The pump is also a model that can run dry, but would not be powered when the salon is not in use.

The only concern i have, which im figuring out today, is how much water pressure the electric tankless water heater can allow coming in. The pump has safey features to turn it off but I dont want it to keep cycling if the pressure of 40 PSI is too much for the heater. From what Im reading thats not a very high PSI for this setup so I think it will be fine..? hope so.
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Old 11-05-2010, 12:31 PM   #4
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Compression tank needed? I dont think so. but not a pro


This being a commercial building, you are certainly going to need a building permit, maybe a separate plumbing permit. The approving authorities are probably going to look pretty hard at water storage, since there is always the possibility of bacterial contamination, Legionnaires disease etc. in a storage system. However, that is the responsibility of the building inspector or plumbing inspector. My recommendation is that you contact them prior to doing any work and see what they think.
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Old 11-05-2010, 01:11 PM   #5
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Compression tank needed? I dont think so. but not a pro


Why do you need a tank and pump? Cant you just extend the line from the nearby faucet?

Also, i'm familiar with the pump you mention. It doesn't have enough flow to wash hair quickly in my opinion. Its alos noisy and the water pulses if you don't have a pressure expansion tank as well.

you are making this way too complicated.

have a plumber tap into the current water line, add your point of use water heater and the sink. Should be easy. Make sure your plumber pulls a permit.
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Old 11-05-2010, 01:13 PM   #6
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Compression tank needed? I dont think so. but not a pro


Thanks for the reply,

I should clarify the open top tank. Really it will be closed with a cap that can be opened for pouring in new water.

The system is very similar to a culligan water dispenser only difference being the tank that will collect the water/shampoo/conditioner mix. This system will not be used for drinking water.
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Old 11-05-2010, 01:17 PM   #7
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Compression tank needed? I dont think so. but not a pro


You want to mix the water/shampoo and conditioner in the tank then pump it through the water heater to the faucet? Why?
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Old 11-05-2010, 01:23 PM   #8
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Why do you need a tank and pump? Cant you just extend the line from the nearby faucet?

Also, i'm familiar with the pump you mention. It doesn't have enough flow to wash hair quickly in my opinion. Its alos noisy and the water pulses if you don't have a pressure expansion tank as well.

you are making this way too complicated.

have a plumber tap into the current water line, add your point of use water heater and the sink. Should be easy. Make sure your plumber pulls a permit.
This would still not solve a sewer line. The closest faucet is 20 feet away in a bathroom through a lobbey, there are several small offices like this one that share this lobbey. The neighbor is not willing to let us tap into her lines(competing salon), the office manager basically lied to my wife about her willingness to help do so. The room is on a concrete slab. We thought of running a water line through the ceiling but again this would require tapping into another business setup which they are not willing to do.

My wife loved the space and signed the lease without consulting me and thus we are trying to make something work.

Im not sure why the water would pulse that much if the tank is feeding the pump via gravity.. Are you saying the pressure from the holding tank needs to be higher to the pump? Isnt standard city pressure around 50psi?
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Old 11-05-2010, 01:26 PM   #9
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Compression tank needed? I dont think so. but not a pro


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You want to mix the water/shampoo and conditioner in the tank then pump it through the water heater to the faucet? Why?
ha no. The clean water would go through the pump to the heater to the sink, where my wife is washing clients hair, this would drain into a holding tank beneath the sink.
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Old 11-05-2010, 01:34 PM   #10
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Compression tank needed? I dont think so. but not a pro


The holding tank has no pressure. The pump draws from the tank and makes about 60psi on demand out the other side (when the faucet is open) The water from that faucet pulsates when used with this pump alone. I know, I have one. to solve the pulsing you would use an expansion tank like this one http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CEYQ8wIwAw#

After the expansion tank would be your electric heater.

storage tank > Pump > expansion tank > hot and cold lines
hot line to water heater to hot side of faucet
cold water line to cold side of faucet

I would only run clean water through this and dispense the shampoo conditioner at the point of use.

Still - i don't think you will have enough volume of water for washing hair efficiently. The setup isn't that expensive to try it out though.
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Old 11-05-2010, 01:45 PM   #11
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Compression tank needed? I dont think so. but not a pro


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The holding tank has no pressure. The pump draws from the tank and makes about 60psi on demand out the other side (when the faucet is open) The water from that faucet pulsates when used with this pump alone. I know, I have one. to solve the pulsing you would use an expansion tank like this one http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CEYQ8wIwAw#

After the expansion tank would be your electric heater.

storage tank > Pump > expansion tank > hot and cold lines
hot line to water heater to hot side of faucet
cold water line to cold side of faucet

I would only run clean water through this and dispense the shampoo conditioner at the point of use.

Still - i don't think you will have enough volume of water for washing hair efficiently. The setup isn't that expensive to try it out though.

Like you said, It isnt too bad expense wise and thats one of the main reasons were giving it a try. Also with the shady landlord I dont want to put money into a system we couldnt take with. This setup could be moved to another site if needed. Or sold.

If Im using a 15 gallon water tank for the clean water, that should be plenty of water to wash hair for two clients. This is from a RV so its used for such purposes. It rated at 3.3 gpm. We ran a test at home that would require maybe 1.5 gallons per min to wash hair and she wont need to run the water for more than 2 minutes for a client. Either way it will need to be enough and she may need to adapt her process a bit to utilize the water.

I was trying to avoid using an expansion tank but may need to. What size would you recommend?
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Old 11-05-2010, 01:59 PM   #12
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Compression tank needed? I dont think so. but not a pro


small cheap expansion tank, what ever is on the shelf at the home center should be fine. try it without one and you will see what I mean.

that pump comes in 110volt and 12volt versions. You will want the 110v version.
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Old 11-05-2010, 02:05 PM   #13
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Compression tank needed? I dont think so. but not a pro


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small cheap expansion tank, what ever is on the shelf at the home center should be fine. try it without one and you will see what I mean.

that pump comes in 110volt and 12volt versions. You will want the 110v version.
Oya I made sure to get the 115 v version. It was kind of a pain to find at first. Once I realized an RV shop would have it, it was pretty quick to locate. I'll give the expansion tank a go and hopefully we will have an operating system.

My wife is kind of freaking out so I gotta make this work.

Brik and everyone, thanks for your help! I'll let you know how it goes!

Last edited by Oya; 11-05-2010 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 11-05-2010, 02:36 PM   #14
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Compression tank needed? I dont think so. but not a pro


Additional question to ponder.. Would it be better to go with an electric small tank water heater vs the tankless. Youve got an idea as to how it would be used. Im thinking it may be a better option. Would this eliminate the need for the expanison tank if Im only using a few gallons at a time? The small 6 gallon options run about the same cost as tankless.
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Old 11-05-2010, 02:57 PM   #15
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Compression tank needed? I dont think so. but not a pro


hmmm - i would still think an expansion tank would be desirable, the tank style water heater would produce thermal expansion which the expansion tank compensates for. That's actually what those expansion tanks are designed for. That said, I would try it without. When doing the plumbing just add the tee fitting for the expansion tank and cap it off. If your water pulsates then add the expansion tank.

I have a couple pics of expansion tanks at my website
http://www.handyguyspodcast.com/76/e...d-water-heater

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