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Blocked toilet rim...please help

24K views 54 replies 9 participants last post by  ThorsgaardFoundry 
#1 ·
Just moved in....I found some particles in the tank that resemble pieces of brick...the flapper was also falling apart in bits.
The toilet only flushes when it wants to....I can pour a bucket of water in the bowl along with the flush and it flushes fine.....so I don't think it's the trap or anything below the bowl. The water in the tank fills up but I don't think the water is moving into the bowl fast enough to cause a flush and due to the evidence of particles i found in the tank, I think the rim is clogged. i tried a coat hanger wire and was able to get it up into the holes but I think there is actually something in the aside from build up that is keeping the water slow...like moving particles and this may explain why every once in a while it manages to flush. It was made in 79 and i am just pretty convinced the rim has got something in it.

How do I get it out?

Coat hanger didn't work.....I even stuck a shop vac hose down in the tank hole but it obviously couldn't get in far enough or have enough pressure to suck anything out. I was told by a receptionist at a plumbing company that there was no way to unclog the rim without taking the toilet out. Moving is more of an option that taking the toilet out.

Please respond.
 
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#2 ·
You probably have a lime build up under the toilet rim and its not letting the water in to the bowel fast enough to flush, the bricks were probably placed there to displace the water in the tank.
I would or get someone to spray muratic acid under the rim to disolve the lime to open up the hole for the flush water to have a greater force to flush the toilet. the flapper can be changed out.I'm sure a Plumber on the forum will be able to get you on the right track!I'm only guessing.
 
#4 ·
Be careful with that muratic acid. Even diluted, it can burn you.
Since you're not familiar with using it, you may want to turn the water off, flush the toilet, duct tape off the toilet rim holes, and pour in vinegar (let sit overnight), then remove tape, turn the water on and flush. Vinegar too will dissolve most minerals.
Also, sounds like you need to replace the water inlet valve and probably the flapper in the tank. I would go with a Fluidmaster 400A valve. They're very easy to install. Just follow the illustrated directions that come with it.
Good Luck!
Mike
 
#5 ·
vinegar...hmm...I used vinegar last week to remove dried acryllic paint off of a table. I'll have to try it.....and duct tape...I never thought about taping the holes shut. That's a good idea.

As for the inlet valve....I must admit I have no idea where that is....would that be the piece just under the flapper?

Thanks for the advice. I'll try it out.
 
#6 ·
oh...I just looked up inlet valve....would that be the fill valve?...over there with the float device?
I don't know what half of these things are called.
Is there any additional water that comes into the bowl besides what has filled the tank? I'm not real clear on how toilets work. I thought it was just what comes out of the tank but one thing I do know is that more water going in the bowl quicker will make it flush. That much I am sure of.
I just couldn't think of any more possibilities other than a clogged rim making the water slow...that and all the junk in the bottom of the tank.

As for the flapper...that most certainly has to go. I'm suprised it's not running. I bought one but I was in a huge hurry and I grabbed the one that closest resembled the one in there off the wal-mart shelf....unfortunately it did not work so I'll have to try that again.
 
#7 ·
Reading again...
Involving the inlet valve...which I read let's a little water in at the end of a flush to give it the normal amount of water in the bowl after it has almost all be siphoned out....and if it didn't could cause problems althought i don't think it's doing that because there seems to be enough water in the bowl but it also let's fresh water in to the tank while the flapper is still up for a momment?
Enough to make not get a complete flush?

Hmmm....it seems it's a little more complicated than I thought.

I have another question.
When you flush a toilet, does any water remain anywhere in the system apart from the slight amount in the bottom of the tank?
For example...when i put the shop vac hose down in the flapper seat, I pulled up some water. when I cleaned the shop vac...I noticed the water was rust red. I don't know if that was because it mixed with the water I sucked out of the bottom of the tank which contain particles...which were red but I didn't think it could make all the water red unless perhaps it was stirred up...because the top of the tank water was not red...I could see all the way to the bottom of the tank which is also stained red, but in the shop vac all of the water was murky red. I only had the hose in there for a second to pick up the little rocks...most of the water came out of the very bottom past the flapper seat....it had stopped flowing of course, before I put the hose in there.

To put it shortly....was this water murky red from the particles on the bottom of the tank or did all that come out from beneath the flapper seat?....Does it hold any water down there?....perhaps to collect debris before it hits the holes in the rim?

The reason I'm asking is because if it has the ability to trao any water within...or chemicals that I put in there....could they remain there to some extent after it is flushed.....since some of that might not want to get acquainted with my shop vac if they have fumes.

I need a diagram.
If there is something in there such as rocks I want them out but I certainly don't want to cause a situation.

Calling a plumber is not an option at this momment....but it may be.
I need to buy a tank lid but I want to know jst how much effort is oing to have to go into this.

If there is actual pieces of brick in this toilet bowl rim...is this a really really potentially bad problem? In theory...which could be my over active imagination...if a brick really fell apart....a clay brick...over time....and the pieces that remain are actually loose hard pieces...

I'm just imagining stuff that won't dissolve.

Ahhh...what is this toilets problem?

I'll inspect it all over again and try the vinegar thing before my next reply.

Such aggravation.
 
#9 ·
I was afraid someone would say that. It is not technically my toilet and this is just going to be a huge hassle...last week it was the freon leak in the fridge. which was also full of bugs and did not get replaced. i don't think the toilet is going to be replaced. I just don't see that happening.
This is all just becoming extremely complicated.

Could the trap be sticking, perhaps?...and the only way to open it is put more gravity on it.

I just don't know. I would very much just like to solve the issue in a simple manner. Last night I turned the water off and the damn thing did a complete flush while the water was turned off.

Why would it do that?
 
#12 · (Edited)
It is not technically my toilet...

Are you renting the house?
If so, then let the owner repair it.

From what you have described, it sounds like you have smaller paticles that are "floating" inside the rim but are too large to flow thru the rim.

Is this a 1.6 gallon toilet?

the wax ring is what "seals" the toilet to the the drain line. It is between the bottom of the toilet and the floor (or drain flange).
 
#17 ·
First turn off the water to the toilet. Then remove the water line going just below the toilet tank. Then remove the tank from the bowl. Then loosen up bowl from the two bolts to the floor. Then tilt the bowl up so that the the "particles" may fall back out. Be careful not to crack either item.

hmmm...sounds intriguing but I would probably break it but I will keep that in mind.
 
#19 ·
This is what I was doing with the coat hanger and I could get the hanger into every hole except one and I'm not sure if that one was clogged or if I just wasn't angling it in right. It didn't seem to do anything.....although it did flush on it's own once last night and again today but the other times the water just goes around the bowl.....slow too.

Ok...I'll look for the fluidmaster thing but tell me one thing.

How many seconds should take for the flapper on a typical late seventies 1.6 to reseat after the flush. Tell me that.....somebody time their toilet.:laughing:

If it takes too long, it's above the bowl and not the trap, correct?
I'm being cinchy. I don't want to by the valve if the toilet is coming out and if the trap is messing up and if the toilet comes out, it may be best to replace the whole thing while the plumber is here before everthing else starts going wrong.
It's missing the tank lid and if I find the right size and shape it may be as much as half the price of a new cheap toilet...or more.
 
#22 ·
Melanie,
Here is another little thing I try. Instead of the coat hanger find an old set or even broken drill twist bits of about the right size the sharp edges of it when you twirl it with your fingers ,around inside the holes cuts better than the smooth coat hanger wire.

I think you probably should stick with the duct tape and vinegar rather than the muratic acid. That acid is MORE than nasty stuff. It is alot like lime away on 'steroids' and is used for cleaning bricks when laying new ones, takes the mortar off, thats how strong it is. The fumes are killers.

You do know the holes under the rim are all slanted one way around the whole bowl??To make the water swirl and flush??

If you are looking for a new lid take a pattern on cardboard, like the inside of a opened up cereal box, draw around it and check with any salvage shops, plumbing shops, and draw around the problem of being a poor little gal that needs just a 'little' bit of help, bat eyelids twice and they will help if they have one.

OR just cut a board the right shape and length and tack a little molding around it to keep it on!! White plastic would be easiest to dust. put a towel over it, a pretty one!! No body would know the diffrence.

Sounds like you 'may' have old iron pipes with alot of rust in your building. If so could be a constant problem If it is bad enough you may have to stick a sediment filter before the fill pipe after iron pipe and before you use plastic supply lines, preferably in a basement or the like. Whats under the floor of the stool is setting on?? If no room for a small filter attach it to the wall under and in back of the throne. Good shut off 1/4 turn valve and you are good to go. IF rusty pipes you may need a sediment filter before your sink faucet too to keep grit out of strainer AND faucet shutoffs cartrigages, (lasts longer)


Good luck, let us know how you end up with this project!! Congrads on tackling this yourself!! HTH --d--
 
#23 ·
ok...I'm back....this is going to be a hodge podge to all. Excuse me if I forget a question.

I found a tank lid.
I put in a new inlet valve and flapper...which initially did not help untill I turned the water level up. It will now flush but it's not what I call a good flush and will probably fail at the slightest bit of too much paper. The water level is up higher than it's supposed to be...like an eighth to a quarter under the pipe. I can live with it for now but I don't like the fact that I know I know I didn't solve the problem. I tried the vinegar. I used duct tape but the holes wouldn't stay closed with the weight of the vinegar trying to come out...which was only a quarter of a gallon at a time...that and the nature of vinegar which I believe will penetrate the adhasive on the tape faster than water and make it come loose...just something I thought of. Perhaps I could try different tape but...I just don't know now if that's the problem.
I'm think it's under the bowl now....perhaps someone could elaborate on the possibilities.

I know it needs weight...more water to open it up so how many things could that be?...and, most importantly is there any way to at least help the problem without taking the toilet out because I'm hesitant to do that. I'm just trying to do all I can before a plumber is called because these people don't have a lot of money and today I came to the realization that we may need to call an AC tech. Lovely...now the toilet problem seems like no big deal. If somebody gets called it will be for the AC first.

When I say how long should it take, I mean from the second I push the handle to the second it gurgles and is done with the flush because I'm thinking if it's too long....the water is just not coming out fast enough because I really have no idea if anything is in the rim or not, but if the water is coming out fast enough into the bowl then it just has to be under the bowl. I'm just trying to rule out the rim because I can't know for sure what inside of it without taking the toilet out.
As for the water level in the bowl...it might get over half, but not much....it looks pretty "full"....I mean, not a full bowl but just a good amount of water but it doesn't look like it's going to overflow. It doesn't even cross the mind, it still has some inches before that but it just doesn't want to go down.
So.....if the water level is not going up high, then at least "some" water is leaving the bowl during the flush? Does that sound right?....it definitely swirls and I did note the slant on the holes. There is now only one I can't get the hanger in.

I just think it's something else now and can't imagine what.
Can the trap be reluctant to open and perhaps open a little to let a small amount out and open when there is enough water coming in but still be defective?...or is it likely some other part under the bowl? I think I need to look at another diagram.

This is an old apartment building and I'm on the ground floor so I imagine it's all in concrete to the dirt and I haven't a clue as to what the pipes are made of but I do believe this was built in 79 and this is the original toilet but to give you an idea of quality features and funding for maintainance....it's also the original burnt orange carpet if that tells you anything.

it will flush now, but there is just enough water in the tank which is about an inch above the water line and it's barely enough to tip the scale, I think and that is why it is flushing. If I put it at the right level, it's back to the original problem.
 
#24 ·
As for rust, I have noticed a little rust and noted hard water but I've seen worse. I do believe there is some build up in the rim but now I just question whether it's enough to do this. I was thinking that someone had put an actual brick in there because it appeared like small pieces of brick in the tank....which is still very possible...I don't know.
Maybe it's a combination problem? Maybe it's just time to replace it....however, I doubt very much that this will happen. They'll be buying a window unti before they buy a new toilet. That I am pretty sure of.
 
#27 · (Edited)
Yes - do not touch the handle. Just pour the water into the toilet bowl and see how the water drains. If it appears to drain normal then the trap is not plugged or restricted. If the water just swirls or drains very slow then there is a blockage in the trap.

I am trying to determine of the problem is the tank or the bowl or it may even be a blocked drain further down past the toilet and the toilet may not be the problem.

(process of elimination:jester: )
 
#28 ·
Yes - do not touch the handle. Just pour the water into the toilet bowl and see how the water drains. If it appears to drain normal then the trap is not plugged or restricted. If the water just swirls or drains very slow then there is a blockage in the trap.

I am trying to determine of the problem is the tank or the bowl or it may even be a blocked drain further down past the toilet and the toilet may not be the problem.

(process of elimination:jester: )
It flushed but I didn't exactly pour it slow. I poured it pretty steady within a few seconds...should I have poured it slower?
That's why I wondering about flush time...it's the same amount of water, just not fast enough to open it up for one reason or another.
:laughing: AAAHHH!

I'm going to try it real slow.
 
#30 ·
A steady but not fast pour of 1.6 gallons produced no flush...although it would be hard for me to compare the time it took to pour it to a flush. It was a wide steady stream...at least as much as two jugs pouring at once if not more.....no flush.

It needs more weight....and faster.

That has to be the trap, right?

It is simply reluctant to open and simply needs more.

what is it made of?.....is it rustable?
 
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