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Old 05-15-2013, 10:33 PM   #16
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I have used Paloma for years with minimal issues, but not a big fan of tank-less, water heaters especially electric models,

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Old 05-16-2013, 11:20 PM   #17
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I've had a Rinnai in my place for about 4 years now and it works good. The biggest draw back (in my opinion) is the minimum flow rate. If you just want a small stream of hot water, if it's not coming out at the minimum flow rate, the heater won't fire and you'll have nothing but cold water I would find a model with the lowest minimum flow rate you can find if this might be an issue for you.

On another note, we once had to clear a major ice dam from our roof one year so I hooked up a heavy garden hose and set the temp to 130 on heater and had non stop hot water for 3 hours until the ice dam cleared... lol
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Old 05-16-2013, 11:23 PM   #18
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T
Personally, I'm not fan of tankless- yet.
I Agree with this 1000% (does percentage go that high? See, i'm not that smart)
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Old 05-17-2013, 11:02 AM   #19
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The minimum flow rate is something I completely forgot about and an interesting point. I certainly don't want to have point of use water heaters all over the place to compensate!
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Old 05-17-2013, 05:35 PM   #20
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The minimum flow rate is something I completely forgot about and an interesting point. I certainly don't want to have point of use water heaters all over the place to compensate!
The new navian NPE and the older 'a' models have a built in buffer tank that eliminates the minimum flow rate.
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Old 06-03-2013, 12:04 PM   #21
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I have a Navien CR201a-na unit that is total junk. 4 years old has had a recall that Navien refuses to pay all the labor to have it fixed. Still have the parts sitting in my garrage. Had the first problem with the unit when it was 8 months old. I have had Navien call me a liar when I told them their tech person sent me into the attic to clean the flow sensor at that time. Have had the plumber out a number of times. Last plumber told me to buy a Rheem and quit throwing money into this unit that I spent more than 2k on. I will never buy another Navien anything. They do not stand behind their products. You never know if you will have hot water when you get up. I have never taken so many cold showers in my life.

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Old 06-03-2013, 04:34 PM   #22
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I struggle to understand how a recirc loop wouldn't make the tankless run all the time. Unlike tank units, tankless heaters are activated by water flow, not water temperature. And if somehow the recirc isn't going through the heater, how would it stay warm??
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:00 PM   #23
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I struggle to understand how a recirc loop wouldn't make the tankless run all the time. Unlike tank units, tankless heaters are activated by water flow, not water temperature. And if somehow the recirc isn't going through the heater, how would it stay warm??
That is correct. When the temperature in the recirculation loop falls and the pump kicks in then the tankless fires up to reheat the water. You are now trading efficiency and probably some wear and tear on the equipment for convenience of near zero lag time for hot water while the recirculation feature is active.
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:21 PM   #24
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That is correct. When the temperature in the recirculation loop falls and the pump kicks in then the tankless fires up to reheat the water. You are now trading efficiency and probably some wear and tear on the equipment for convenience of near zero lag time for hot water while the recirculation feature is active.
So the recirculating line actually somehow feeds thru the heater.?
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:29 PM   #25
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I struggle to understand how a recirc loop wouldn't make the tankless run all the time. Unlike tank units, tankless heaters are activated by water flow, not water temperature. And if somehow the recirc isn't going through the heater, how would it stay warm??
Recirc loop on the piece of junk Navien runs on a timer. It also has a temp reach feature for the small tank it has.
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Old 06-03-2013, 05:30 PM   #26
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So the recirculating line actually somehow feeds thru the heater.?


I have the Navien NR-210a model. It has a built in recirculation pump.
So yes, it is pushing the recirculated water back through the heater.
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Old 06-04-2013, 08:50 AM   #27
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That is correct. When the temperature in the recirculation loop falls and the pump kicks in then the tankless fires up to reheat the water. You are now trading efficiency and probably some wear and tear on the equipment for convenience of near zero lag time for hot water while the recirculation feature is active.
Thanks, now I understand. Must be the age thing; I spent many years teaching the theory and operation of nuclear power plants and industrial facilities, so piping systems, thermodynamics, and fluid flow are hardly strange to me. But just wasn't getting this one.

Sounds like a poor trade for minimal added convenience. But then, my tankless is only about 4 feet from the master bath so there's almost no wait.
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Old 06-04-2013, 03:17 PM   #28
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Why not just look into a small tankless only for the master bath?
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Old 06-04-2013, 06:15 PM   #29
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If I were to ever do tankless, I would only have it installed by someone who cared about their reputation and assured me that they'd fix any and all problems if something went wrong. There are just too many complaints out there.
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Old 06-05-2013, 09:01 AM   #30
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If I were to ever do tankless, I would only have it installed by someone who cared about their reputation and assured me that they'd fix any and all problems if something went wrong. There are just too many complaints out there.
I understand what you're saying. That's why I installed our tankless myself. But then, my wife and I built our entire log house almost completely by ourselves.

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