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Old 08-19-2010, 12:24 PM   #1
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Bernoulli's Principle, increase 3/4" pipe to 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" copper


Based on water demand of a future shower (21 gpm) I need to increase the pipe from the well. With all my faucets in house open max flow is 4 gpm. I need to check the breaker and make sure both halves are working. Otherwise, filters and softener are knocking my flow WAY down!

Current piping in the house are branch circuits of 3/4" pipe and 1/2 snub outs. Recommended pipe size for tankless heaters is 3/4" and that is current fitting size. Will I create some sort of Bernoulli's principle flow problem by increasing size of pipes in-between fixtures to 1-1/4" pipe? In my sequence the last step will be to increase well pump and pipe to the pitless to either 1-1/2" or 1-1/4" and bring that all the way in to a new pressure tank manifold.

Since the water filters and softener all have 1" fittings am I gaining anything by increasing pipe size larger than 1" beyond the first water filter which is immediately after the pressure tank manifold? Current pressure tank has a draw down of about 24 gallons, should I plan to add additional tanks? I doubt either of us will take a 1 minute shower or even a three minute shower when using all the shower heads are running so is there any advantage to increasing tanks vs. just running on pump during the shower? Also, the full demand shower wouldn't be the daily one either so should I stay with the single tank?


Planned sequence (maybe weeks or months between each step):
  1. Change manifold to 1-1/4" and pipe up to 1" connection on whole house macro filter.
  2. Increase pipe from macro filter to softener
  3. Replace venturi and venturi housing in softener (currently malfunctioning)
  4. Increase pipe from softener to micro filter
  5. Increase pipe from micro filter to first tee and tankless to 1"
  6. Run all lines to new shower valve in 1"
Any responses that are off subject i.e. "well pumps, valves or will start a flame war" will be sent to moderator.

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Last edited by ChrisDIY; 08-19-2010 at 12:40 PM.
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Old 08-19-2010, 12:39 PM   #2
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Bernoulli's Principle, increase 3/4" pipe to 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" copper


What is the well recovery rate at?
What max flow rate is the well pump?
What is the line from the pump to the pitless and what is the line from the pitless to the house?

Increasing the lines in the house will mean little if the well and the line to the house can not handle what you are planing on doing.

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Old 08-19-2010, 12:44 PM   #3
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Bernoulli's Principle, increase 3/4" pipe to 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" copper


Quote:
Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
What is the well recovery rate at?
What max flow rate is the well pump?
What is the line from the pump to the pitless and what is the line from the pitless to the house?

Increasing the lines in the house will mean little if the well and the line to the house can not handle what you are planing on doing.
Well in 2003 had flow of 75 gpm. Calling local well driller out to get current rate and cleaning, doubt it could have been reduced by more than half in 7 years.

Have to dig up the line from house to well, but 3/4" goes out basement wall.

New pump will go in prior to shower completion and use. Well depth 40', well pump at 25' from county records.
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Old 08-19-2010, 12:59 PM   #4
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Bernoulli's Principle, increase 3/4" pipe to 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" copper


One man here did a 1 1/4 line in and through treatment equipment and then a main run down the center of the house with branches of 3/4 to the points needed..
Last that I heard it is working very well for the family...
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Old 08-19-2010, 01:08 PM   #5
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Bernoulli's Principle, increase 3/4" pipe to 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" copper


Quote:
Originally Posted by Akpsdvan View Post
One man here did a 1 1/4 line in and through treatment equipment and then a main run down the center of the house with branches of 3/4 to the points needed..
Last that I heard it is working very well for the family...
THANKS! I cannot measure, cut and sweat pipe fast enough to do all sections at once. Do they make 1-1/4" to 1" male/female and 1-1/4" to 3/4" male and female fittings?
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Last edited by ChrisDIY; 08-19-2010 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 08-19-2010, 01:15 PM   #6
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Bernoulli's Principle, increase 3/4" pipe to 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" copper


There are so many variables here I can't even begin to analyize this setup.

Pipe size, distance, flow rate and pressure are your 4 main areas of concern here.

Lets look at the big picture first, never mind the pipe sizes at the moment. It sounds like your well pump can keep up with the 21 gpm demand, good, but you need to determine if your softener and filters can handle this same flow rate. It might be in some literature you have with the unit models to determine this. If the treatment system can't keep up with the demand, is doesn't matter if you put in a 1" pipe or a 12" pipe, your not going to ge the flow. You also need to look at your hot water heater capacity and see if that can keep up with the 21 gpm load at the temperature rise you're looking for. All your in-line equipment needs to be size and capable of maintaining this flow rate before you even look at pipe sizing.

If any of these devices cannot keep up with your 21 gpm flow rate, you either have to replace them with units that can, or provide one or several large pressure storage tanks after all these devices that can supplement this high flow when the shower is in use.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:09 PM   #7
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Bernoulli's Principle, increase 3/4" pipe to 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" copper


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There are so many variables here I can't even begin to analyize this setup.

Pipe size, distance, flow rate and pressure are your 4 main areas of concern here.

Lets look at the big picture first, never mind the pipe sizes at the moment. It sounds like your well pump can keep up with the 21 gpm demand, good, but you need to determine if your softener and filters can handle this same flow rate. It might be in some literature you have with the unit models to determine this. If the treatment system can't keep up with the demand, is doesn't matter if you put in a 1" pipe or a 12" pipe, your not going to ge the flow. You also need to look at your hot water heater capacity and see if that can keep up with the 21 gpm load at the temperature rise you're looking for. All your in-line equipment needs to be size and capable of maintaining this flow rate before you even look at pipe sizing.

If any of these devices cannot keep up with your 21 gpm flow rate, you either have to replace them with units that can, or provide one or several large pressure storage tanks after all these devices that can supplement this high flow when the shower is in use.
Here it is

Install was quick knowing it would need to be re-done. Will check on flow rates for water treatment fixtures. The dual tankless was done in anticipation to handle high flow rate.
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Old 08-19-2010, 03:41 PM   #8
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Bernoulli's Principle, increase 3/4" pipe to 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" copper


Good call!!! Softener is duty rated at 10 gpm. I guess I need to call Whirlpool to see how the efficiency decreases as you go beyond. Whole house filter is 6 gpm. I will need to determine how accurate the flow sensor is on the softener. Will go ahead and replace the sensor parts and get back on flow with everything open. If flow is still in the 4 gpm neighborhood then I know I have room to go to 6 gpm and 10 gpm with less filtering...
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Old 08-19-2010, 09:34 PM   #9
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Bernoulli's Principle, increase 3/4" pipe to 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" copper


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Good call!!! Softener is duty rated at 10 gpm. I guess I need to call Whirlpool to see how the efficiency decreases as you go beyond. Whole house filter is 6 gpm. I will need to determine how accurate the flow sensor is on the softener. Will go ahead and replace the sensor parts and get back on flow with everything open. If flow is still in the 4 gpm neighborhood then I know I have room to go to 6 gpm and 10 gpm with less filtering...
The units that you are using right now are all going to need to get the boot..
NO way are they going to be able to handle the upper end flow right.

One way around the Filter like a big blue is to have 2 or 3 on a first in last out flow set up..

The challenge with the softener is that if you size for the 21gpm you most likely will have challenges if you run a lot of the year down under 5gpm... so some thing to think about on the softener side is again the first in and last out.. two units that share the flow to give the high end and if you are running in the low range for awhile you can take one off line for that time.
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Old 08-19-2010, 11:01 PM   #10
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Bernoulli's Principle, increase 3/4" pipe to 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" copper


I added up the ratings for the shower heads again and the max is 18.8 gpm. So running the system at 10 gpm will be 53% of the designed capacity. I will have to contact Kohler to find out what kind of experience will we have at 53%. Turns out the unit also runs all the shower heads and body sprays until they reach the preset water temperature every time its turned on. So unless we except bleed through of unsoftened water we cannot exceed 10 gpm. When I contacted Whirlpool today they suggested getting a commercial grade softener.

We now have to decide if its worth all this...

How can I find people who actually have one of these Kohler DTV II systems??? Back in Chicago you got flow until the lake ran out...
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Old 08-30-2010, 10:52 AM   #11
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Bernoulli's Principle, increase 3/4" pipe to 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" copper


Can anybody tell me if going back to 1-1/4" pipe after going through a 1" fitting will give you any improvement over leaving it 1" pipe?
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:04 PM   #12
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Bernoulli's Principle, increase 3/4" pipe to 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" copper


One last thing. If the pressure drop from the softener is 10 psi and the same for the filter and again for the soon to be installed iron filter, I need to increase well pressure tank settings by 30 psi? Provided the first unit, iron filter, can tolerate an increase from 60 to 90 psi? So need to get or adjust to 70-90 switch?
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Old 09-17-2010, 09:57 AM   #13
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Bernoulli's Principle, increase 3/4" pipe to 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" copper


Quote:
Originally Posted by dawktah View Post
Can anybody tell me if going back to 1-1/4" pipe after going through a 1" fitting will give you any improvement over leaving it 1" pipe?
There will be some slight improvement, but only minimal depending on the distance.
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Old 09-17-2010, 10:00 AM   #14
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Bernoulli's Principle, increase 3/4" pipe to 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" copper


Quote:
Originally Posted by dawktah View Post
One last thing. If the pressure drop from the softener is 10 psi and the same for the filter and again for the soon to be installed iron filter, I need to increase well pressure tank settings by 30 psi? Provided the first unit, iron filter, can tolerate an increase from 60 to 90 psi? So need to get or adjust to 70-90 switch?
If you adding a bunch of stuff to your incoming water line that has a pressure drop associated with it, then yes you will need to increase the pressure from the well to overcome these devices. It might not have to be increased by the whole 30 psi, but you need to see what pressure you will get at the discharge of all this equipment and figure out what the minimum pressure is you need at the fixtures, and adjust accordingly.
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Old 09-18-2010, 10:49 PM   #15
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Bernoulli's Principle, increase 3/4" pipe to 1-1/4" or 1-1/2" copper


After thinking about this the well pumps are generally rated to only 60 psi. So I am going to have to adjust switch to 50-60. I have to decide whether to tackle replacing my own well pump. It's only down 30 ft. so it's within reach, no puns intended.

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