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Old 01-16-2011, 06:06 PM   #1
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Basement french drain ( footer drain ) Sediment cloth or sock?


I've been digging out the perimiter of my basement to install a new footer drain for water proofing, im almost to the point to start filling in.

What is the best recommendation for keeping sediment out?

put sediment cloth in the trench first, then rock and pipe

just throw the rock in the trench then wrap the pipe in the sock.

use both?

thanks

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Old 01-16-2011, 06:26 PM   #2
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Basement french drain ( footer drain ) Sediment cloth or sock?


I disagree with the experts. I say put the filter cloth in first, then add gravel and lay the pipe. The cloth needs to be wide enough so when the pipe is covered with more gravel, there is enough cloth to fold over the top.

Or do it this way. Put some gravel in first, then the cloth, then more gravel, then the pipe. Some more gravel to cover the pipe before folding the cloth over the top.

The disadvantage of wrapping the pipe first is that, if the cloth clings to the pipe, only the circular spots directly over the holes in the pipe will pass water into the pipe. If these spots get clogged (a very small area in square feet compared with the entire cloth), water collection by the pipe will be very slow.

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Old 01-17-2011, 11:38 AM   #3
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Basement french drain ( footer drain ) Sediment cloth or sock?


So don't bother with the sock ?

any other suggestions

thanks alot.
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:27 PM   #4
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Basement french drain ( footer drain ) Sediment cloth or sock?


The ols real french drains that are still working well after many, many years had to filter fabric or even perforated pipe and relied of proper fill under and around them. The used a well graded mixture of clean sand and and smaller rock. Never large course rock.

The term "gravel" is meaningless since it is just a local term for some sort of mixture that might work for a gravel road or road base.

Make sure your perforated pipe or tile has an invert elevation below the bottom of the footing. This lowers the ground water level slightly and increases the area of the collection material, reducing the velocity and minimized clogging up with excessive fines.

Drain tile is an investment and just not a quick fix for a storm or two and provides some great structural befits to a basement over time. If you have water entering soon after a heavy rain or snow melt, you have more basic problems with your house relating to drainage, gutters, etc.

Dick
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:37 PM   #5
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Basement french drain ( footer drain ) Sediment cloth or sock?


Thanks, my trench is about 12 inch wide , and 12-14" deep( from top of slab to bottom )

The sediment cloth i bought is 48" wide, so i'll be able to wrap it around top and over lap once everything is in.
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Old 01-17-2011, 01:50 PM   #6
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Basement french drain ( footer drain ) Sediment cloth or sock?


I agree with AllanJ, although I do not know why he preferences by saying he disagrees with the experts. In my design experience, the standard technique for minimizing infiltration of fines, accepted by the majority of experts, is to do exactly as he says, specifically wrap about a 1 foot square section of crushed stone fill with the filter fabric, which surrounds the pipe.

Couple of details worth noting. The holes in the pipe should face downward. Use Schedule 40PVC pipe. It is not necessary to pitch the pipe downward, level is fine. It is essential that the pipes connect to the sump pit where you are putting your pump, unless you are building a gravity system to daylight, in which case the below ground pipe should be solid Schedule 40 PVC, and the solid section should be pitched downward to the outlet, and buried below frost line.

I agree with the comment about the use of the term gravel. While gravel is well defined amongst geotechnical engineers, it has little meaning to the average person. You want your pipe surrounded by crushed stone with less than 5% fines. If you were building an outside perimeter drain, you would ideally carry the crushed stone all the way to the surface, and cover with a foot or so of loam so you can plant something. With an interior drain, this is impossible, so you fill to the bottom of the slab with crushed stone. It is not good practice to use a mixture of crushed stone and sand, as the sand will penetrate into the pipe through the holes.
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Old 01-17-2011, 02:18 PM   #7
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Basement french drain ( footer drain ) Sediment cloth or sock?


Thanks dan.

I had a truck load of 3/4" crushed ' clean stone ' delivered. The guy one the phone said this is what they use all the time for drainage

Is pitch really not that important? i was under the impression that i still have to follow 1/4'' per foot.


I have one issue on one section of my basement where the clean out is for the main sewer to the street. This is the ' high point ' of the basement

I want to have the pipes fully connected point to point, but i think i'll have to dig out underneath the pipes and use some 90's to go under then connect back to the pipes on each side ( i'll drill holes in the 90's )

Or, should i not bother connecting the pipes together and just fill this entire " pit " with drainage stone and put a cap on each side of the pipes up to that point?















Also, while these pics are up.... I'd like to replace that section of cast iron waste pipe to PVC, mainly so i can move the clean out as far back as possible to the wall, and extend the clean out above the slab so that i can back fill it in with cement, The pit has always been open. and has been a flood problem spot.


Suggestions on how to route around these pipes?
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Old 01-17-2011, 04:13 PM   #8
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Basement french drain ( footer drain ) Sediment cloth or sock?


Alec-

You have the 3/4" rock so you will have to use it. Ideally 3/8" would be better because it eliminates the "gap grading" that can cause plugging and defeats the object of using the backfill as a filter blanket. Big rock serves little purpose in this application except fill up space.

For years, I played on an old(100 years) golf course with a maze of old subsurface drainage that was installed decades ago and works with no maintenance. If the landscapes is changes, they use the same principals of construction and have no 3/4" rock around, but always have a pile of 3/8" and another pile of concrete sand. The good sand for the traps is imported from quite a ways away because it is different and would not work in a drain tile situation just as 3/4" does not.

In all the years of seeing foundation and leakage problems, the right backfill under and around the drainage pipe is critical, because it filters the water entering and enlarges the collection area and minimizes the transportation of fines.

Obviously, the drainage material should be used full height to increase the collection are and avoid structural problems from saturated soils.

Since you obviously have a block foundation, take advantage of the cores and knock holes at the base of the wall and insert short sections on flexible plastic pipe leading into the pipe backfill before pouring concrete. I had a friend that built about 7,000 homes, all with both interior and exterior drain tile with flexible plastic drains were installed on every home because it was cheaper to do it during construction than face future problems that never happened.

Nothing wrong with also using fabric and a sock for a "belt and suspenders" solution after all the work you have done.

Dick


Last edited by concretemasonry; 01-17-2011 at 04:16 PM.
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