Go Back   DIY Chatroom Home Improvement Forum > Home Improvement > Plumbing

CLICK HERE AND JOIN OUR COMMUNITY TODAY...IT'S FREE!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old 06-12-2013, 12:55 AM   #16
Remodel and New Build GC
 
MTN REMODEL LLC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Colorado @ 7651'
Posts: 2,874
Rewards Points: 2,018
Default

Air continues to appear in pipes


Not sure of my logic as yet... all I was thinking was.... if you had an airtight enclosure, or a partial/intermittant blockage in your initial supply, and a a leak somewhere in your plumbing that could let in air, maybe you were getting the glub, glub, glub. like when you have an unvented drainage line.

Then maybe it has something to being South of the equater;... does gravity work the same way down there as up here on the North side...????


Best

Peter

__________________
Never stop learning (xcep fer speling en typeing)
MTN REMODEL LLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 01:32 AM   #17
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Argentina
Posts: 12
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Air continues to appear in pipes


Lids are not airtight.. I'm sure of that... There are about 600 litres of water in each tank. If the lid were airtight, they'd be pulling from the top of the tank...

About gravity - you guys 'up' in the Northern hemisphere have it all wrong - you're still below us. And It's all the fault of one guy, Ptolemy: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/441/on-maps-why-is-north-always-up.

johncc330 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-12-2013, 08:39 AM   #18
Remodel and New Build GC
 
MTN REMODEL LLC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Colorado @ 7651'
Posts: 2,874
Rewards Points: 2,018
Default

Air continues to appear in pipes


Quote:
Originally Posted by johncc330 View Post

About gravity - you guys 'up' in the Northern hemisphere have it all wrong - you're still below us. And It's all the fault of one guy, Ptolemy: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/441/on-maps-why-is-north-always-up.
John.... Well maybe.... but I don't recall Ptolemy ever having a problem with his gravity fed water system....

Peter
__________________
Never stop learning (xcep fer speling en typeing)
MTN REMODEL LLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2013, 09:40 AM   #19
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Argentina
Posts: 12
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Air continues to appear in pipes


Well, a (more or less) systematic approach gave a possible explanation of the problem.

- Most of the time the problem appeared, seemed to coincide with my working outside, but only broadly, as I really didn't stop working until a few days ago. I had a 'cooling off' period, as I had loads of other (paying work to take care of.

- After those days, bubbling seemed to stop, It started again yesterday when I did some more work. So I started looking at the hose I use to get water for mixing mortar. No leaks. And no bubbles at the output end either... Strange.

- Now my theory is that, because of the fact the faucet is quite a bit higher than the end of the hose, the 'gravity pull' of the water was so high it actually pulled air into the hose somehow. This air then went through the faucet, back into the piping, each time I closed the hose (at the other end).

It should be possible to check this - I suspect at least some air should bubble up in the tanks. I'll check that tomorrow... Not entirely convinced yet...
johncc330 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2013, 10:47 AM   #20
Remodel and New Build GC
 
MTN REMODEL LLC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Colorado @ 7651'
Posts: 2,874
Rewards Points: 2,018
Default

Air continues to appear in pipes


Hummmmmmm!.... Gotta think about it....Almost a venturi effect..... Keep us posted....This is a great puzzle.
__________________
Never stop learning (xcep fer speling en typeing)
MTN REMODEL LLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2013, 10:48 AM   #21
Bill Kearney
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bethesda, MD USA
Posts: 1,978
Rewards Points: 1,124
Default

Air continues to appear in pipes


Do you have a back flow preventer on the hose spigot? They've become pretty commonly used up here in the states. Some areas even require them. The idea being they prevent anything from being pulled back into the water system (like bacteria from hoses sitting out in the hot sun all day).

If air was pulled back into the hose and then up the pipes, then it's possible there are places where the in-wall plumbing runs up/down in ways that might be creating traps for the air. This might explain the case of air problems not being immediately related to the use of any one outlet or the hose.

Pick up and install a backflow preventer on the hose. See if the problem changes or lessens.

Last edited by wkearney99; 06-13-2013 at 10:50 AM.
wkearney99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2013, 10:58 AM   #22
Remodel and New Build GC
 
MTN REMODEL LLC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Colorado @ 7651'
Posts: 2,874
Rewards Points: 2,018
Default

Air continues to appear in pipes


Quote:
Originally Posted by johncc330 View Post
Well, a (more or less) systematic approach gave a possible explanation of the problem.

- Most of the time the problem appeared, seemed to coincide with my working outside, but only broadly, as I really didn't stop working until a few days ago. I had a 'cooling off' period, as I had loads of other (paying work to take care of.

- After those days, bubbling seemed to stop, It started again yesterday when I did some more work. So I started looking at the hose I use to get water for mixing mortar. No leaks. And no bubbles at the output end either... Strange.

- Now my theory is that, because of the fact the faucet is quite a bit higher than the end of the hose, the 'gravity pull' of the water was so high it actually pulled air into the hose somehow. This air then went through the faucet, back into the piping, each time I closed the hose (at the other end).

It should be possible to check this - I suspect at least some air should bubble up in the tanks. I'll check that tomorrow... Not entirely convinced yet...
John.... Sure don't have an explanation... but something interesting at my personal home that is possibly quazi similar.

I live on a relatively steep sloped property. My lowest (as in elevation) outside hose bib shudders pretty darn hard (very hard stuttering type water hammer) when I turn it on. My others (at higher elevation) don't.

It always has (I've lived here 25+)... I did not install and just lived with it.... never understood it, but it would/might seem I've got some air in there....?????

Just food for thought... may not be related

Best

Peter
__________________
Never stop learning (xcep fer speling en typeing)
MTN REMODEL LLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2013, 11:06 AM   #23
Bill Kearney
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bethesda, MD USA
Posts: 1,978
Rewards Points: 1,124
Default

Air continues to appear in pipes


Hammering when turning on? Or when shutting it off? Try putting a hose connector water hammer arrestor on it. I had to add some on my hose bib due to a sprinkler timer that would shut off too quickly and cause hammering. $10 arrestor eliminated it entirely. Hammering pipes usually means movement is being caused, and movement is bad for solder joints...
wkearney99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2013, 11:25 AM   #24
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Argentina
Posts: 12
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Air continues to appear in pipes


Quote:
Originally Posted by MTN REMODEL LLC View Post
I live on a relatively steep sloped property. My lowest (as in elevation) outside hose bib shudders pretty darn hard (very hard stuttering type water hammer) when I turn it on. My others (at higher elevation) don't.

It always has (I've lived here 25+)... I did not install and just lived with it.... never understood it, but it would/might seem I've got some air in there....?????
Peter, I've only just discovered my problem (I think), so I'm hardly an expert. But our situations are very similar. Our house is actually cut out of a hillside - quite steep.

I'm suspecting that the weight of the water in the pipes might pull air into the pipes - which is much easier happen than leaking. The same might actually be happening to you. Also, I suspect that the water entrance at your house is above the lower hose, so you also have 'pull'. if moreover the faucet at the top has the same diameter as the bottom one, the difference in pressure will try to make a vacuum at the top of the hose, pulling in air if it finds a way.

Maybe the solution is to provide a larger diameter (more flow) at the top, to compensate for lower feed pressure.

Ah, well, life is never boring...

John
johncc330 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2013, 01:13 PM   #25
Bill Kearney
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bethesda, MD USA
Posts: 1,978
Rewards Points: 1,124
Default

Air continues to appear in pipes


Quote:
Originally Posted by johncc330 View Post
Ah, well, life is never boring...
You got that right.

Nor are the random odd things that surprise you when it comes to a house.
wkearney99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2013, 01:51 PM   #26
Remodel and New Build GC
 
MTN REMODEL LLC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Colorado @ 7651'
Posts: 2,874
Rewards Points: 2,018
Default

Air continues to appear in pipes


Quote:
Originally Posted by wkearney99 View Post
Hammering when turning on? Or when shutting it off? Try putting a hose connector water hammer arrestor on it. I had to add some on my hose bib due to a sprinkler timer that would shut off too quickly and cause hammering. $10 arrestor eliminated it entirely. Hammering pipes usually means movement is being caused, and movement is bad for solder joints...
Bill.....It's when turning on... and I suspect that you are correct.... interesting that it's not a bang, but a continueing shuttering as my valve is a slow opening valve.

I suspect that there is not an air arrestor on that bib.... there wasn't on my other two, which I happen to have access to in the past.

I'm not sure what hose connector water hammer arrestor is.... as it is after (downstream) from my bib valve.... would it have any effect

Thanks

Peter
__________________
Never stop learning (xcep fer speling en typeing)
MTN REMODEL LLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2013, 01:56 PM   #27
Remodel and New Build GC
 
MTN REMODEL LLC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Colorado @ 7651'
Posts: 2,874
Rewards Points: 2,018
Default

Air continues to appear in pipes


Quote:
Originally Posted by johncc330 View Post
Peter, I've only just discovered my problem (I think), so I'm hardly an expert. But our situations are very similar. Our house is actually cut out of a hillside - quite steep.

I'm suspecting that the weight of the water in the pipes might pull air into the pipes - which is much easier happen than leaking. The same might actually be happening to you. Also, I suspect that the water entrance at your house is above the lower hose, so you also have 'pull'. if moreover the faucet at the top has the same diameter as the bottom one, the difference in pressure will try to make a vacuum at the top of the hose, pulling in air if it finds a way.

Maybe the solution is to provide a larger diameter (more flow) at the top, to compensate for lower feed pressure.

Ah, well, life is never boring...

John
John.... gotta still think about it.... but the facts do seem to be the dead same as you stated/surmized. (I need a head scrathching smiley thing)

Peter
__________________
Never stop learning (xcep fer speling en typeing)
MTN REMODEL LLC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-13-2013, 03:14 PM   #28
Bill Kearney
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bethesda, MD USA
Posts: 1,978
Rewards Points: 1,124
Default

Air continues to appear in pipes


Quote:
Originally Posted by MTN REMODEL LLC View Post
Bill.....It's when turning on... and I suspect that you are correct.... interesting that it's not a bang, but a continueing shuttering as my valve is a slow opening valve.

I'm not sure what hose connector water hammer arrestor is.... as it is after (downstream) from my bib valve.... would it have any effect
I suspect it wouldn't help your situation, at least not after the valve. The arrestor after the valve acts as a shock-absorber between it and what is shutting off the flow AFTER it. Which in my case was a timer valve for sprinklers. It would close so quickly the flow of water would have to stop too quick and end up hammering the pipe. But if it's hammering on the opening then I doubt it would help.

Curious to consider the issue of a lower hose pulling water down fast enough to overcome the same effect on other spigots in the structure. But I suppose that makes sense. Something upstairs just happens to be open while the lower valve is opened and the downward flow is pulling hard enough to pull 'some' air back in through them.

I wonder, how are larger building water systems designed to work around this? Are there some sort of in-between valves or something to combat this?
wkearney99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2013, 03:09 PM   #29
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Argentina
Posts: 12
Rewards Points: 10
Default

Air continues to appear in pipes


I've read somewhere that in really large buildings water distribution is separated in groups of floors. Of course, if the building is high enough, the weight of the water will simply draw a real vacuum (not really, the water will start to boil). This happens, if I recall, at about 33 ft (10 meters) - which is why pumps have to be at the bottom of the well. Note also that air dissolved in water will bubble out way before 10m.

Anyway, I suspect that the problem in my case, and maybe Peter's, is that maybe air is drawn into the hose at some point, maybe the upper faucet, the point where the hose is attached...
johncc330 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-14-2013, 07:04 PM   #30
Bill Kearney
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Bethesda, MD USA
Posts: 1,978
Rewards Points: 1,124
Default

Air continues to appear in pipes


Dang, I'd never thought about how that would work. Learned something new, thanks.

wkearney99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
plumbing air


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Drain Pipes, Walls and Studs mattaparity Plumbing 2 12-18-2011 08:22 AM
Anoying sound in house water pipes when sprinklers are ON gante Plumbing 1 06-07-2010 07:04 AM
Combining vent pipes in the attic. a4aj Plumbing 5 02-04-2010 12:20 PM
How to (retrofit) insulate/air seal cantilever with hot water pipes in it? KatieAK HVAC 5 11-01-2009 09:15 PM
insulating heated garage(retrofit)- insul. & pipes KatieAK Building & Construction 0 10-25-2009 10:03 PM




Top of Page | View New Posts

Copyright © 2003-2014 Escalate Media. All Rights Reserved.