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Carpenter ant advice

30K views 56 replies 12 participants last post by  DoomsDave 
#1 ·
Short version: Trying to determine if we have a serious issue or not. Wife is ready to call exterminator; I'm not.

Longer version: Basically, for the past few years, every spring we start seeing ants, mainly in the attic. Not a huge amount, but enough to want to do something about it. So each spring about this time of year, I've gone outside with a flashlight and find a trail or two coming to the house. I go with diatomaceous earth, boric acid powder; maybe a spray too; and then they go away. Until the next spring.

Seems to me a seasonal pattern, and each year foraging ants find a new way into the home. Unless we have nests inside and these are foragers going out and not in! (I know correlation does not necessarily mean causation, and it's possible that my treatments are doing nothing and the ants would naturally wind down after springtime.)

We had a particularly wet spring here in NE Ohio, so that may be increasing ant activity inside our house now in 2011. That coupled with this being at least the 3rd consecutive spring we've gone through this is making my wife concerned that we have a serious problem. Tonight I asked her how many--she said she's squashing 9 or 10 a day. Which to me, doesn't sound bad. But she's obviously more concerned than I am. I just don't think it's time to get in an exterminator for $800 or whatever in treatments, and what I'm doing each year is enough. (And this year, I'm determined to find the nest that is sending foragers into our house!)

So....does it sound like I'm underreacting? Any advice at this point?

Thanks!

Dante
 
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#33 ·
OK, the long update....

Well, I'd love to have something to report, but if anyone reading this lives in NE Ohio, you know what the weather has been like! Unfortunately, I have not had any windows of rain-free forecasts since I got the Termidor! (Actually, I did have one window, but found out my pump spray was broken!) So I"m still waiting to do the treatment--probably next weekend by the looks of the forecast.

As for my issue with plants, I called the tech support at Termidor/BASF and understandably they can't recommend anything that goes against the label. In some areas, I could only treat the foundation, thus gaining one foot of the dripline zone, but that will, of course, provide less protection. But he seemed to think my strategy was sound--Since the places where my raspberries grow along the house are not places I've seen established trails, it is probably not too bad a risk to just not treat those areas. After this year's harvest, I'll pull out the ones nearest the house and treat the foundation only. Being a non-repellent, the ants won't be looking for a "gap" in the Termidor, but I"m still vulnerable to the random wanderings of ants. If over time this turns out to be an Achilles heel, I'll pull all the plants out and go 100%.

Interesting side note. I found old pdfs on the EPA webpage of memos to BASF. It seems from the original language on the label that the edible plant issue was only for termite treatment, not ant/perimeter spraying. EPA had them change it to the blanket warning. And just "treating around"; the one-foot dripline zone came later. Basically from what I've gleaned, it hasn't been tested specifically as a systemic in plants, so no one can say it is indeed safe, nor indeed harmful. Lack of evidence means nothing if you haven't designed a test to look for that something! I guess it is easier (and cheaper!) for BASF to just tell people to keep it one foot from the dripline than to do whatever needs to be done to be cleared for edible plants, since that is far from Termidor's main purpose.

As for Phantom, I did start spot treating inside. I sprayed all along the bottom corner where wall meets floor under that attic window and along a few places where I saw some ants. And in the voids under the insulation and some floorboards. And yes, I couldn't resist hitting some ants point blank! That was maybe a week ago, and there seems to be dead ants showing up that appear to have not been squished by my family. I just was upstairs and saw 2 or 3 walking around, so they could be from a non-Phantom area, or just walked across it. Jury is out on everything until I can get that Termidor down.

I just hope that if they did establish a satellite colony in the attic, they haven't figured out how to get to water and food w/o leaving the house. My wife has many art supplies and different media, I suppose the ants could find a way to get what they need from some of that. They are crafty. :furious:

To be continued....
 
#34 ·
For what it's worth, and knock on wood... I'm an additional 10-12 days out from my last post and we have seen ZERO ants indoors since then (and even then I think I had said I was a week out w/o an ant), and I have seen no activity around the foundation where there previously I had seen then walking up/down the foundation constantly.

Could not be happier w/ the results so far!
 
#35 ·
Oh, I have no doubt this stuff will do the trick. Just being patient (as thunder rolls overhead at this moment!) The good thing is that I think my wife is on board, as no exterminator appointments have been made! And if she does call someone who would treat in this weather, I'd ask for my money back!

Dante
 
#36 ·
dcent: You've learned a lot and your strategy will work. When opportunity permits and you get to the hands-on part, your learning will go to the next level. Gauging results as you go will teach as well.

Don't stress out too much about the rain. Once it dries, it stays put. Also, spray up under soffits, roof lines, etc. The rain doesn't hit that usually. The perimeter of the house is protected to an extent by rain gutters and soffits, especially where house is one story.

It was interesting to read of your research as to termite (subterranean and large volume) versus surface application regarding edible plants. What I do in those areas is to skip the soil treatment but spray of the foundation, siding a foot or so. When it dries, it stays put.

AS a sidenote, I advise customers to not plant anything in perimeter of house that needs to be watered. If you think about it, we pay thousands of dollars for rain gutters, spouting, sloped landscaping and then we short circuit that systems by watering the perimeter.
 
#37 ·
Thanks for the tip about spraying under the soffit and roofline. I thought I could only do the 1-foot zone up the foundation and out in the soil. but come to think of it, the tech guy at BASF did say I should also spray around where wires come to the house (both the attachement point and wherever they enter the wall)

Not stressing over rain; just haven't had too many 24 hour dry spells. But looking very favorable for the weekend!

Also, my family found a tree in a nearby park that they said looked to have a carpenter ant nest--maybe 200 feet from our house. Possible source? I just may go out there anyway and spray the tree with Termidor, (under cover of darkness....)

Thanks,

Dante
 
#38 ·
Also, my family found a tree in a nearby park that they said looked to have a carpenter ant nest--maybe 200 feet from our house. Possible source? I just may go out there anyway and spray the tree with Termidor, (under cover of darkness....)
I would be tempted to do the same but would remind myself that what I sprayed on my own property is different than on somebody else's and especially that owned by the public and without an applicator's license or even verbal permission.

All it would take is for one little kid or pet to get sick and you blamed because of the illegal chemical application. Your life could turn nightmarish whether your actions led to the problem or not. I would resist the temptation and not treat the tree in the park.

That said, the park and forestry departments for this region are diligent about trying to keep pests that threaten trees under control and would want to know about an infestation like you spotted. If they have the budget, your park arborist division will come out and deal with the tree your family noticed.
 
#41 ·
Question about treatment. I'm reading the label, and it says to apply the perimeter spray at the rate of 2 quarts per 160 linear feet. I totally understand that mathematically, but in practice, what is the "feel" for that rate? I can measure my house's perimeter and soffits and figure out, for example, that I should be 1/2 through my gallon sprayer by the time I get to the garage. But from people's experience is this more like a natural pace or to achieve this do you feel like you need to go slow or fast. (Kind of like fertilizing a lawn!) And I also understand this has its limits to precision and that rate is a guideline!

Also, I noticed the the Phantom label says it can be used for exterior spot treatment, but no mention of precaution around plants. Would it be advisable for me to use Phantom on the foundation near my raspberries?

thanks
Dante
 
#42 ·
dcentori

I have watched a few pros (so called) spraying, there wasn't a lot of science or consistantcy when they sprayed.

I just it wet and close to but not a point of run off. Seems to work for me when spraying.

Make sure it is dry before your kids and pets go near it and all should be well. I send mine to the inlaws for the day, gives me a chance to catchup on other things as well..

PLAZ
 
#43 ·
Phase I complete!

I finally had the break in weather, and Saturday morning I did the whole perimeter (minus raspberry zone), soffites, roofline, places where siding meets masonry, and around all windows and garage door. And the one tree on my property. (I did not go into the park!) Biggest job was the deck, since I wanted to be as thorough as possible. I ended up removing every third plank and that was enough to reach from where I left off underneath, so I got complete coverage. Also did the deck supports too while I had that exposed so I could cover another ant path. Kept the kids inside while I sprayed and afterwards if they went out, told them to stay away from the house, to give plenty of margin for drying time. So now we're OK. And everyone is under orders to resist the temptation to squish ants, so they can bring that fipronil back to their nest!

I'm glad I pulled up those deck planks because I found other possible ways into the house--crawlspace vent, electrical conduit and remains of the original masonry steps off the back door. They were soaked good!

Phase Ia will be treating the interior door frames with Phantom as soon as I get a chance and Phase II will be to complete the exterior Termidor treatment when the raspberries are done later in the summer.

Label says treat twice a year. Did I do this too late to do a second treatment, or can I do this in late December? Also, due to the involvement, do you think I can get by with just one treatment under the deck per year? Does not look like much water makes its way down there (as evidenced by what appears to be a few years old raccoon poop)

Thanks to everyone's help and I will keep my fingers crossed that ant activity will cease!

Dante
 
#44 ·
Nice job! You were so thorough that it borders on obsessiveness, and I mean that as a compliment. No one I know, including me, ever removes deckboards. Not wrong, but you don't have to do that again. Spray in from the sides, then through the gaps in deck boards. REmember, Termidor is non-repellent. They will walk thru the chemical eventually because of that. That is the advantage of non-repellents.

When Termidor/Phantom treatments were proposed, I resisted as it seemed way to easy. I was using sprays, dusts, drills and a $1000+ micro-injector and still getting call-backs. Now it is easier and safer, chemically and physically.

Two times a year does not mean every 6 months. The timing is the operators choice.

Uncross your fingers, it will work. Sit back and relax.
 
#45 ·
That's good to hear I don't need to do that deck work again! But I had to do it that thorough the first time to leave no doubt as to where ants may be sneaking in if they don't go away. (one potential Achilles heel would be enough!)

I'll wait a few weeks before I caulk in the areas I treated; then start looking for water damage to repair.

Thanks for all the help!

Dante
 
#48 ·
I am new to this site, so I am not sure of the rules as to whether or not I should start my own ant thread or post in this existing one. I will make a new thread if instructed.

So beginning in the spring of this year, we started to notice a lot of ants throughout the house. At first they were the tiny black ones, and it seems with a combo of ant cups and that Ortho stuff you spray around the perimeter of the house, we got rid of those. A few weeks later, the larger black ants started to come around, which I assume are/were carpenter ants. A guy at my work has a license for Termidor, so for $310 he came out and sprayed all around the house, plus 6? feet up the sides of the house. He also put some of that bait stuff under window sills (where the ants seemed to be the most), and also put some sort of spray powdery junk in many cracks/crevices throughout the house. He also sprayed Termidor around our detached garage, though not as high since we were going to be replacing some of the rotted siding shortly after. All of this seemed to help, as the number of large black ants started to dwindle, then disappear. Also, a couple days after he came to spray, I went out the front door to get the mail and there were no joke 100+ ants out on the front steps/walk either dead or dying.

Fast forward about one week after seeing the pile of dying ants, we started to notice inside the house what looked like even bigger (3/4") black ants with wings around the house. The first thing I thought of was termites, but it seemed weird that they showed up after the spraying. So after consulting the internet, we decided (maybe optimistically?) that what we had looked more like ants than termites from the photos shown. Could be wrong, though. So I asked the guy who sprayed about it, and he said if it was termites to look out for wings around the house, in windowsills and such, and also tubes on the foundation and generally in the basement. If they were ants, he said just give all the treatments some more time. In the meantime, we were killing 5-10 of these winged creatures a day. So since we didn't see any termite evidence, we uneducatedly decided that they weren't termites. And he was right, within another two weeks or so, the big winged ants have not reappeared, which is where we stand today, as far as the house goes.

Today, while painting the new siding on the garage, we noticed a lot of ants on the trim near the roof line, and also saw one of the larger ants with wings in the same area. I know that the spray was at least somewhat effective in the garage, as I saw many dead ants inside.

The questions I have I guess: What are these big ants with wings? I know there is always a possibility that they are termites, but if not, are they queens or something? Why did all these winged ants appear in the house after the treatment? Should I have the termidor guy come back to respray the garage? He gave us a 90 day guarantee. Anything we did wrong, should we be concerned more? Thank you to anyone who reads
 
#49 ·
Sorry for the delay, but I was planning to offer my post-mortem after I trimmed back the raspberries and finished my first perimeter treatment of termidor. Also, I haven't been able to do that Phantom treatment in my sunroom, as we already started our annual summer caterpillar project and didn't want to risk any collateral damage (25 chrysalis this year! so far, so good!

Needless to say, despite not "finishing" my phase 1 treatment plan WE HAVE NOT SEEN A SINGLE CARPENTER ANT SINCE! THANK YOU!!

I still need to get those loose ends, and then do my second treatment for the year this fall. But as has been pointed out, no need to tear up the deck!

The real test will be to see if any show up next year, but I sincerely doubt that now.

Thanks all!

As for Porkfriedrice, I will wait for the pros to respond, but sounds like something got established inside your house and those are the winged carpenter ants. My understanding then is that if that is the nest and they have access to food and water inside, they had no need to forage outside and cross the Termidor perimeter. I have a hunch Phantom will be recommended. Good luck!

Dante
 
#50 ·
dcentouri: Well done on your ants, and good advice to porkfried. All ant colonies have winged reproductive ants in them-you are seeing what is called supplemental queens. There is rarely just one queen-the supplementals are the ones that split off with a cross-section of the colony when the main colony gets too large. This new colony is called a satellite colony. When you guys treat, also treat all surrounding tree trunks, up to about your own height with Termidor. Colonies will live quite well in trees and satellite colonies split off from them, so get the tree nests too. Seeing dead/dying/distressed ants means it is working. It works slow. We give a 6 month warranty with one application and rarely get called back for warranty work. We tell the customer to wait at least two weeks after treatment before making a re-assessment.
 
#51 ·
And now, Spring is upon us...

I never got around to doing a fall Termidor treatment last year, and with the mild winter here in NE Ohio, I'm afraid the CAs could be mobilizing early. Can I do my treatment this early? I know about giving about a 24hr period w/o rain, but I couldn't find anything on the label about temperature. Although we've had record breaking temps, I could easily still see another snowfall or freezing temperatures out here.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Dante
 
#53 ·
This is to PA bug man what is the safety on Termidor when you are digging the treated soil back up. For example they did a pretreat on our footers but I saw the exterminator spray mounds of dirt drenching it in the garage where we hadn't treated yet so that was graded and pulled some of the dirt am sure on out into the walk area in front of the garage, that's issue one issue two is I am digging right done to the footers and pouring a concrete pad adjacent to my garage and am terrified of getting into the chemicals. I know this sounds a lil neurotic but I have a fear of chemicals and my husband decided to pretreat :)
 
#54 · (Edited)
Make sure you have no leaks that are causing moisture, Carpenter ants need moist wood to create nests. There is a product, Terro, that is quite effective in control. I use jar lids with a mixture of honey and borax with just a slight amount of water to aid mixing. When I first tried this I checked later and found the lid surrounded by a host of ants. A couple of days later - no more ants. I keep a few loaded lids around but have not seen any more ants. I understand that the worker ants take the mix back to feed the queen ant. She is responsible for the production of more workers. No queen = no new workers = no nest. The beauty of this is that the mix is not immediately fatal. The ants also feed/poison the home guard. You will see a few stragglers around for a few days, but without the nest they do not live long.
 
#56 ·
Carpenter ants like damp wood. If you see them regularly, there is damp wood somewhere.
 
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