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Old 04-19-2013, 06:27 PM   #1
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Will the tile crack?


I am tiling two adjoining rooms. One room is on 3/4 inch plywood subfloor and the other is on concrete slab. I have gotten some good information here from an earlier post about raising the level of my concrete slab 3/4 inch with self leveling concrete to match the height of the top of the hardie board in the adjoining room. I was going to put an expansion joint between the plywood and the concrete and then tile over both. I have finished laying the porcelain tile in the first room and am now ready to continue into the room on the concrete slab floor. I am using the same tile in both areas. I was ready this morning to go get the self leveling concrete to raise the floor level. My problem is this: the expansion joint is going to be underneath the middle of a row of tiles. I'm thinking that this isn't the right way to do this. Will it possibly end with a cracked tile? Is there a way to finish this job without having a crack along this meeting of concrete and plywood? I've thought about laying a thinner bed of slc and then laying Ditra on top of that. Then the tile. Also, can I cut strips of styrofoam to place against the wall to act as the expansion joint for the slc? The two pictures show the different height between the concrete and the finished tile on plywood and also the outline of the hardie board as I covered the existing plywood. These rooms are a kitchen and a utility room. Neither get direct sunlight. The utility room is between the kitchen and the garage. It is 77 square feet. Only the garage is not climate controlled. My home is in Chattanooga, Tn. Thank you for taking your time to consider this for me.
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Old 04-19-2013, 08:19 PM   #2
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Will the tile crack?


Barrie,

Ditra is a great product, but it won't help you eliminate the extra joint. With Ditra you still have to honor the expansion joint. Some have cheated and made the expansion joint on the very next grout line, but that's not the recommended way. It's too late for you anyway since you're already install Hardie and the tiles too close to the joint. Next time you need to plan ahead better.

However, the best bet to eliminate the extra joint is to use Noble's CIS; http://www.noblecompany.com/Portals/...ion%200912.pdf

You'll have to remove some tiles, but it should work for you. Otherwise just make the extra cuts. OH, looks like it's not just a straight line.

Jaz

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Old 04-20-2013, 08:07 AM   #3
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Will the tile crack?


Thanks Jaz for the quick reply. Thanks for the link to NobleSeal CIS. I think you're right that that may be the way to go. Would I still pour the slc up to the level of the top of the backerboard already down and then bridge the gap with CIS? It looks like I will have to take up one row of tiles so I can get the CIS under the minimum 3 tile width required. Not too bad, that's only 4 tiles to take up. At the expansion joints do you leave the foam in place and tile over the top of it?

Thanks, Barrie
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:14 PM   #4
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Will the tile crack?


If you tile over the expansion joint it is not an expansion joint. Expansion joints are desigend for "controlled movement". What you could try is "bridgeing the joint and try to create a slip joint underneath the tile allowing it to move withpout it transfering up to the tile. BUT...if it moves it is going to move and it still may transfer up. One important thing to look at is how the two floors are conected. How long has the slab bean there. What are the surroundings like...ie are you on a very wet hill? One thing you could have done is extend your backerboard spanning the joint and thinset the board to the concrete. Tape your joints. This is all my opinion mind you.
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Old 04-20-2013, 02:01 PM   #5
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Will the tile crack?


Thanks Skipoff. The house was built 15 years ago and both areas were completed at the same time. There is about a 1/4 inch gap between the slab and the plywood and framing below. It appears that they built the block walls of the basement and then put the concrete forms for the garage floor up to that point. It looks like they then removed the forms and built the floor system to meet the concrete and on top of the block walls. Right now the concrete is 3/4 inch lower than the top of the backerboard. I'm trying to bring the concrete up to the same level before tiling. I started the tiling in the kitchen and am continuing into the utility room. What type of slip joint are you thinking about? That's kind of what I was thinking when I asked if I should use Ditra under the tile on the concrete. I thought that would allow the two substrates to move differently and not damage the tile above. Jaz didn't think that would help. I'm not a flooring guy so I'm learning as I go by reading as much as I can find before I get to a certain situation. So far I've avoided things like putting concrete board or treated plywood on the slab with adhesive. Take a look at the link Jaz left for me in his comment. It looks like CIS is designed to bridge joints and allow tile patterns to continue.

Thanks again, Barrie
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Old 04-21-2013, 11:14 AM   #6
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Will the tile crack?


You bet. I have not used that particular product but there are many crack suppresion products out there. Another one is laticrete brand paint on product with fyberglass embedded in it. Another one is a rolled product that is installed the same way as the nobel brand. I dont remember the name but there are several brand names of the similar design. Alot of people in the industry have nicknamed it fly paper. But...nothing (economicaly) is going to stop it from cracking if it moves enough. If i was doing the job and after looking at you pic again i would pull some tile up AND backerboard back a bit so you can create a bridge. The Ditra system is probably the most readily available to you being they sell it at home depot. The theory is you want the tile and whatever you use for the underlay to be able to somewhat be able to become one unit and be stable enough to support itself (within reason) if the substrate decides to move a bit. But, all the systems are desinged for minimal movement. Expansion systems allow for more movement but you really cant do that in your situation unless you wanted to change the tile layout in that room. also whatever you decide...buy extra tile for future repairs in case it fails.

Hope this helps ya.
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Old 04-21-2013, 07:15 PM   #7
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Will the tile crack?


Barrie,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Barrie
Would I still pour the slc up to the level of the top of the backerboard already down and then bridge the gap with CIS?
Yes you need to make the floor flat. But remember you have to still maintain the expansion joints.

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipoff
If you tile over the expansion joint it is not an expansion joint.
Wrong, it's still an expansion joint, and if you don't apply a product like CIS the tiles above it would crack. You're not suggesting that by applying the tiles it'll all be held together are you?

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipoff
The Ditra system is probably the most readily available to you being they sell it at home depot.
Sorry skipoff, you're not understanding the purpose of Ditra. Ditra is NOT a crack-isolation membrane. It's an uncoupling membrane. You still have to install expansion joints in the tile work over the expansion joints of the substrate.

The Ditra Handbook tell us:
Movement Joints
DITRA and DITRA-XL do not eliminate the need for movement joints, including perimeter joints, within the tiled surface. Movement joints must be installed in accordance with industry standards and norms; see page 20 of this Handbook, TCA EJ171, and TTMAC 301 MJ.
concrete floors may incorporate various movement joints; see page 21 of this Handbook for guidelines on how to treat the different types of joints (control/contraction joints, expansion joints, etc.).

You should read about expansion joints in section 20 & 21. Or better yet get your own handbook and read the whole thing.

http://www.schluter.com/media/DITRAH...v=201304201547

Jaz
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:30 PM   #8
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Will the tile crack?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMan View Post
Barrie,



Yes you need to make the floor flat. But remember you have to still maintain the expansion joints.



Wrong, it's still an expansion joint, and if you don't apply a product like CIS the tiles above it would crack. You're not suggesting that by applying the tiles it'll all be held together are you?



Sorry skipoff, you're not understanding the purpose of Ditra. Ditra is NOT a crack-isolation membrane. It's an uncoupling membrane. You still have to install expansion joints in the tile work over the expansion joints of the substrate.

The Ditra Handbook tell us:
Movement Joints
DITRA and DITRA-XL do not eliminate the need for movement joints, including perimeter joints, within the tiled surface. Movement joints must be installed in accordance with industry standards and norms; see page 20 of this Handbook, TCA EJ171, and TTMAC 301 MJ.
concrete floors may incorporate various movement joints; see page 21 of this Handbook for guidelines on how to treat the different types of joints (control/contraction joints, expansion joints, etc.).

You should read about expansion joints in section 20 & 21. Or better yet get your own handbook and read the whole thing.

http://www.schluter.com/media/DITRAH...v=201304201547

Jaz
I guess we disagree.
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Old 04-23-2013, 08:54 PM   #9
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Will the tile crack?


Quote:
Originally Posted by skipoff
I guess we disagree.
You disagree with Schluter? Not a good position to have. They're the experts on Ditra and they do not claim Ditra is an isolation membrane.

You can download the manual and read all about how-to at http://www.schluter.com/media/DITRAH...v=201304232045

Jaz
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Old 04-24-2013, 10:37 AM   #10
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Will the tile crack?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMan View Post
You disagree with Schluter? Not a good position to have. They're the experts on Ditra and they do not claim Ditra is an isolation membrane.

You can download the manual and read all about how-to at http://www.schluter.com/media/DITRAH...v=201304232045

Jaz
No I disagree with you. If you create an expansion joint you do not need a slip joint/uncoupling joint/movement joint or whatever you want to call it. They are two completely different systems. Expansion joints are controlled cracks....you see them in bridges in a extreme way. Slip joints are uncoupling the substrate from the surface material. Read your handbooks...this is all common sense.

Move on.....
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Old 04-24-2013, 09:10 PM   #11
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Will the tile crack?


Quote:
No I disagree with you.
What is it that you disagree with?

Barrie's floor goes from concrete to wood with CBU over it. There obviously must be an expansion joint installed at the transition, and you said in post #6...

Quote:
Originally Posted by skipoff
If i was doing the job and after looking at you pic again i would pull some tile up AND backerboard back a bit so you can create a bridge. The Ditra system is probably the most readily available to you being they sell it at home depot.
I responded by correcting you that Ditra is not a crack isolation membrane, therefore you can not use it to "bridge" the crack. I even pasted the quote from the Schluter Handbook for you to read.

I know some people don't understand the difference between crack isolation & uncoupling, but there is a difference.

Also a good idea to review section - EJ171 MOVEMENT JOINT GUIDLINES FOR CERAMIC, GLASS, AND STONE in every TCNA Handbook.

Jaz
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Old 04-25-2013, 10:42 AM   #12
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Will the tile crack?


You can not bridge cement board, tile or ditra over those joints with out a product like the CIS or you will have make your grout lines exactly were the joints are therefore requiring the grout lines to be siliconed.
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:59 AM   #13
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Will the tile crack?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JetSwet View Post
You can not bridge cement board, tile or ditra over those joints with out a product like the CIS or you will have make your grout lines exactly were the joints are therefore requiring the grout lines to be siliconed.
Expansion joint.
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Old 04-25-2013, 12:02 PM   #14
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Will the tile crack?


Quote:
Originally Posted by JazMan View Post
What is it that you disagree with?

Barrie's floor goes from concrete to wood with CBU over it. There obviously must be an expansion joint installed at the transition, and you said in post #6...



I responded by correcting you that Ditra is not a crack isolation membrane, therefore you can not use it to "bridge" the crack. I even pasted the quote from the Schluter Handbook for you to read.

I know some people don't understand the difference between crack isolation & uncoupling, but there is a difference.

Also a good idea to review section - EJ171 MOVEMENT JOINT GUIDLINES FOR CERAMIC, GLASS, AND STONE in every TCNA Handbook.

Jaz
Crack isolation is another name for bridging. This can be done for small cracks in concrete to prevent them from transfering up to the tile. Uncoupeling is another name for slip joint witch seperates the two surfaces. am i wrong?
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Old 04-25-2013, 12:08 PM   #15
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Will the tile crack?


If the man doesnt want groutlines and the house has been there for 12 years he MAY be ablle to span the joint. Yes it is a risk and yes it may crack. That would be the purpouse of buying extra tile. When dealing with movement carack isolation products are for the least amount of movement, uncoupeling would be the next then expansion. Why are you suggesting spanning the joint the nusing an expansion joint. Covering the joint will put undo stress on the surrounding tile and may deffet your controlled expansion joint. Come on use common sense here.

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