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-   -   Warning: Do NOT use "Duck Seal" by Anderson (http://www.diychatroom.com/f5/warning-do-not-use-duck-seal-anderson-1854/)

muenchk 02-12-2006 12:02 AM

Warning: Do NOT use "Duck Seal" by Anderson
 
Ok...you don't have to take my word for it. Call a few pro wood installers and ask their opinion (I wish I had).

I bought 1000 sq feet of Anderson engineered wood floor (6" in wide plank distressed maple), and bought what the manufacturer recommended: duck glue and duck seal. Well, I'm installing over a level concrete slab. I removed the carpet, scraped the glue, poured hot water and removed ALL the glue off the concrete. Used the duck seal nice and thick (measured out to use the right ammount). Installed about 400 sq feet, then realized that the stupid "duck seal" just peels off easy as can be!

I'm freaking out, worried that the installed 400 ft are just going to come loose one day, and have decided to get a pro to finish. (The guy I'm using recommends installing vinyl first, then the engineered wood on top of that).

Anyway, it's a disaster. I followed the manufacturers instructions to the letter and the "duck seal" has the worst bond to the concrete I could've imagined.

DO NOT USE THIS STUFF!!!

I wish I'd asked around first. But now that I am, I'm hearing a lot about how this product is complete junk.

Zero Punch 02-12-2006 10:44 AM

Question, did you allow the floor to dry after the hot water bath and did you then sand the floor to increase surface roughness a slight scarify?

My experience with sealers is to do a test area. I have seen floors that were too smooth and the sealer had no penatration and the sealer just sat on top. On others the floor was not clean enought, foreign substance glue residue, paint, etc.

Although you have problems with the product and have followed instructions to the best of your ability and experience does not imply that the product is no good. Just that it may not have been the right product for your application and your lack of experience at determining the appropriateness of application.

muenchk 02-12-2006 01:37 PM

Thanks for the reply Zero...

I did let it dry...for several days. But the concrete is quite smooth. Could it be that there is not enough roughness to bond with? I didn't sand, because the instructions say not to.

But now I'm wondering. How much "bonding" can you expect from a product like this? I mean, if it is applied properly, would you still be able to remove it by "peeling?"

I'm asking because now I'm wondering if I'm simply expecting too much adhesion with the concrete, and not so much adhesion is needed.

If so, then maybe I should continue installing the wood. The places where I've already installed the wood seem pretty glued. I'm sure if I got a crowbar I could crank them up, and the weakest link is the sealer.

But how much adhesion is really necessary between the concrete sealer and the concrete???

Maybe it's ok that the sealer has low adhesion to the concrete?

What do you think I should do?

muenchk 02-12-2006 02:25 PM

Also, what about using diluted Muratic acid to clean the floors first?

Could that help remove any unseen substance and strenghten the bond to the concrete?

Or is the bond that important?

Thanks for your help!

Zero Punch 02-12-2006 05:27 PM

muenchk, the problem is there is such a wide difference in concrete, the sand the agragette the amount of cement and other additives the way a slab is finished hand troweled or machine troweled, and again you removed adhesive with hot water and scraping which may have left a residue glaze. Mechanical removel is prefered 40-60 grit.

We had a floor that we used the recomended simi-penatrating sealer at the recomended rate and it sat on top of the slab. No penatration. We had to scrape it all off and rescarify the floor and go with another sealer, not recomended by the flooring manufacture. Yet on the same project but another pour and mix the concrete was so bad that it had to be shot blast and topcoated with SLC before we could proceed. Unfortunately what works in the lab doesn't always work in the real world so specs sometimes turn into general recomendations tempered by experience and job conditions.

muenchk 02-12-2006 06:42 PM

thanks
 
OK Zero...thanks for the advice.

I think I'm going to try the muratic acid and see if that does it.

If not, I'm going to have to call a pro who already told me he'd lay down vinyl first. Then glue the wood on top.

jproffer 02-12-2006 09:37 PM

I don't understand the idea of laying vinyl first then wood. Either: A) the wood has to bond to the concrete or...B) the vinyl does. IF the sealer is stopping that from happening than you could lay down 10 layers of vinyl and it wouldn't be bonded any better than laying none. Unless of course he's talking about just laying it down without glue, which would still defeat the purpose...or perimeter gluing..and if the sealer is the problem, then you're still back at "square one".

muenchk 02-13-2006 01:59 AM

I think the idea is to glue the vinyl directly on top of the concrete. No sealer. Then glue the wood on top of the vinyl.

I have about 500 sq feet that still doesn't have the sealer on it. And I'm guessing that while the sealer may have a hard time bonding with the concrete, the glue used for the vinyl flooring will bond just fine (that stuff is pretty tough...at least it seems that way when you try to remove it).

Does this make sense. He says he lays all engineered wood floors this way and has no failures.

Pilot 07-18-2006 04:56 PM

Gotta tell you.. USE A SEALER from everything I've read if you don't you'll be sorry.

RE: the sealer peeling up... the guys at www.mightyseal.com warned me that if I was going to use any topical sealer I should first rough up the smoother concrete first, otherwise it would probably be easy to peel up, that's what it sounds like is going on with yours.

I'd also suggest a penetrating sealer. Look at menco.com they have a product, or you might do a web search for concrete sealers. I gotta tell you that concretenetwork.org has help me a lot too.... good luck with your research....

PS if you hear anything let me know before I do my floor!
Pilot

Floorwizard 07-18-2006 11:14 PM

Wierd.

I am 2 weeks away from laying 2000 square feet of Anderson wood with Duck glue over concrete.

it's getting floated over 6 mil poly and the glue is used in the tounge and groove only.

Now I am wondering if it was meant to float.
I remember it specifying a floating floor application.


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