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Old 06-28-2011, 07:18 PM   #16
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Travertine floor- correct info new thread


UPDATE,

I have shared all the comments and feedback with my contractor, who in turn has shared it with his engineer. The result back from them is the floor definitely will handle the weight of the tile and they stand by that conclusion. He feels it meets the L600 which is the code for North Carolina for masonry.

I have not had my engineer out and at this point not sure how much it will help if it in fact does pass code.

I feel I am in a hopeless position as the contractor wants to redo the floor as is.

Can anyone approx a cost to add a beam if they cut the ceiling below ?

I am probably stuck with the bill unless an engineer proves this guy wrong...not sure if it is worth the $500....

Thanks,
Dennis

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Old 06-28-2011, 07:23 PM   #17
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Another question.

The tile in the master bath is being removed per using the incorrect thinset mortar. We have a heated flooring system underneath, is it possible to remove and leave the flooring system ? This is what is being attempted.

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Dennis
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:30 PM   #18
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The result back from them is the floor definitely will handle the weight of the tile and they stand by that conclusion.
Dennis...The floor will handle the weight, no one has disputed that. The weight IS NOT the issue.

DEFLECTION IS THE ISSUE.

Why, after all of this have we not learned anything?

We have advised you of the industry recommendations. We even told you where you could find the specifications.

THE STRUCTURE DOES NOT MEET THE INDUSTRY CRITERIA FOR A STONE FLOOR INSTALLATION. Your contractor is mistaken. Your contractors engineer is short on knowledge. He must have been absent that day in engineering school that they talked about structural deflection requirements when installing stone floors.

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Old 06-28-2011, 08:46 PM   #19
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Bud, I made a mistake in my wording, handling the weight was incorrect and I should not have stated it that way, sorry. He claims the deflection numbers are L420 and total of L600 which is more than enough to meet code. The code I am told in NC is L600 which it meets. If the tile companies recommend L720 why does the code say L600 ? This is what I am fighting against. Dennis
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Old 06-28-2011, 08:49 PM   #20
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It isn't a whim of the tile companies. We already told you where to find the information.

Besides...I retired.
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Old 06-28-2011, 09:03 PM   #21
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The Tile Institute does not make code, they make recommendations. Their recommendations are for the benefit of professional tile installers, and MAY be adopted by the code authorities. What this means in practice is that the local code authorities are free to adopt any deflection standard they see fit to adopt, regardless of recommendations from the Tile Institute, ASTM, or anyone else for that matter.

I am not familiar with North Carolina building codes. I do not know what requirements they establish for installation of tile. I am willing to take your word that the requirements IN THE BUILDING CODE are L600 for stone floors. Perhaps they also define in the building code exactly how to determine the deflection criteria, as there are several different ways to perform the calculation (live load only, live plus dead load, dead load + point load, dead + live + point load).

The point is that professional tile installers have developed their own requirements for satisfactory deflection to protect the professional installer from claims relating to cracked tile due to insufficiently rigid floors. Apparently in this case, the recommendations are stricter than the local building code. Remember that following building code is not a guarantee of successful installation, it is simply a minimum requirement. While building codes are generally conservative, in this case they may not be.

As to asking people on an internet chat forum to perform complex deflection calculations for your property, that is a bit much. Even more out there would be to ask a professional engineer to instruct you over the internet on how to perform such computations. As a registered PE with a specialty in structural and geotechnical matters, I can tell you that computation of deflection for a floor subject to dead load, distributed live load, and point live load, is way beyond a DIY site. Those computations should be performed by your engineer, and if the conclusion is that the floor is insufficiently stiff to support a professional tile installation, your engineer should prepare a report for you on how to stiffen the floor. If your engineer believes that the floor is already adequately stiff, they will tell you that, and you can decide where you want to go from there.
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Old 06-29-2011, 01:21 PM   #22
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The Tile Institute does not make code, they make recommendations. Their recommendations are for the benefit of professional tile installers, and MAY be adopted by the code authorities. What this means in practice is that the local code authorities are free to adopt any deflection standard they see fit to adopt, regardless of recommendations from the Tile Institute, ASTM, or anyone else for that matter.
Exactly correct.......recommendations based on testing.
I wonder how much testing has been performed by that local government agency?
Don't forget the Marble Institute of American also makes only recommendations for success. The MIA's recommendations parallel the TCNA recommendations through independent testing. Now there's a co-incidence for you.

Quote:
I am not familiar with North Carolina building codes. I do not know what requirements they establish for installation of tile. I am willing to take your word that the requirements IN THE BUILDING CODE are L600 for stone floors.
Bearing-load capacities and deflection-movement are two different things.

Quote:
The point is that professional tile installers have developed their own requirements for satisfactory deflection to protect the professional installer from claims relating to cracked tile due to insufficiently rigid floors.
This is also correct. It is a CYA composition of recommendations. Recommendations based on testing and made by about 45 members of a board most of which are experienced tile installers and contractors in one form or another.

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Remember that following building code is not a guarantee of successful installation, it is simply a minimum requirement.
It's all minimums!

Quote:
If your engineer believes that the floor is already adequately stiff, they will tell you that, and you can decide where you want to go from there.
And in this case that information should also be reduced to a written document maybe.

This engineer must think this guy is nuts

Last edited by Bud Cline; 06-29-2011 at 10:52 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 06-29-2011, 08:35 PM   #23
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New twist for the day. After continuing to pry and ask questions and share opinions from the site. I was informed of the following.

Since the existing part of the floor is raised going into the bedroom, with a joist system of 2x10's and on top 2 x 6's , I found out tonight that the new addition we have been talking about has additional 2 x 6 joist on top of the 2 x 10.

I am trying to confirm the direction as they stated it along the total of the span. Not sure which direction they are going.

What does this mean ? Does this now improve the strength and deflection or did we add to the problem with the existing joist and the span it is covering ?

Dennis
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Old 06-30-2011, 12:52 PM   #24
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Here was my update for today. The original 2 x 10 joist had the span of 14' 11" the 2x6 joist went across the span of 9 ft on top of the 2x10's. The 2x6's are 24 oc.



what does this do to the deflection ?Am i in better, great or worse shape ?
Dennis



Dennis,

Yes, the 2x6 joists were nailed to the 2x10 joists where they crossed and to the 2x6 band on the outside and to the existing band (or what it was we added against the existing. The 2x10 and 2x6 bands were attached as I drew for you this morning.

Tom
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Old 06-30-2011, 03:53 PM   #25
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I have no friggen idea what's going on now. Can't wait to see what else pops up tomorrow.

Take it Jaz !!!!!!
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:38 PM   #26
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Take it Jaz !!!!!!


No frikin way!! I'm more confused than I think you are.

Looks to me like a complete field deflection analysis is in order here. Either that or to keep the price low a WAG.

Jaz
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Old 06-30-2011, 10:59 PM   #27
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Old 07-01-2011, 02:46 PM   #28
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Guys,

What we are looking at is the following, surely someone can break this down.

The addition matches to the the existing floor, which had 2 x 10 with a 2 x6 joist above it. I have a step up in the bathroom.

The new addition has the info listed.

2 x 10 joist , 16 oc, clear span 14' 11 "
2 x 6 joist above, 24 oc, span 9 '

If I had a problem with the 2 x10 joist, does knowing I have another set of joist perpendicular on top of it improve my deflection numbers or not ?

How is the deflection now for the stone tile which is being redone soon ?

Thanks,
Dennis
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Old 07-10-2011, 07:11 PM   #29
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Update,

I did have an engineer review the numbers and was told the deflection should 1/8 inch and the current floor is someone between 1/2-3/4 inch deflection.

The added joist did very little if anything to add strength but added dead weight. Attaching the joist 24 in on center is also not good for the stone tile as it should be no more than 16 oc.

I will be having further conversation with my contractor and the engineer tomorrow morning.

So far the way I understand a good solution would be to add LBL lumber every 12 inches between the 24 oc joist. I hope this takes care of it , assuming we remove the subfloor for most of it and then under the shower support it from underneath.

Any other thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Dennis

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