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Old 03-04-2011, 10:02 PM   #31
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Trafficmaster Allure - Underlayment?


also, you should never wear shoes on Vinyl. you should wear socks or house-slippers. any little rocks or hard things in the soles of shoes will poke holes in Vinyl. and all shoes will cause scuff marks, that is why the soles of shoes wear away over time. what do you people expect from plastic?

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Old 03-18-2011, 10:39 AM   #32
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This is mainly to "2cb" and all of his/her previous three posts... But if others can benefit from it, then all the better...

I'm getting ready to put down a finished floor in our basement and was doing a bit of Googling to see the reviews on the Allure vinyl flooring. I'm finding that all the reviews are about 50/50, depending on where the product is placed. Those who install this in first or second floor of their residential houses, never see an issue unless they admit that they didn't acclimate the product to the surrounding for 48 hours or use a heavy roller to compress the glue joints. Otherwise, a warm, dry environment with plenty of air circulation seems best.

But unless this product is placed on a concrete slab in the states of Arizona, Nevada, Texas, New Mexico (all the dry as sand states), then you're basically out of luck when it comes to putting this stuff down, directly on a concrete slab. I live in Connecticut and there's no one in the entire New England area who doesn't have water movement under their slab. Whether they have a dry basement or not... You're still going to get moisture moving up through the concrete, which needs ventilation to keep down the musty smell, humid environment and dampness. I'm not talking about flowing water that's under pressure... I'm talking about simple ambient moisture that filters through a highly porous material, such as concrete.

Now, 2cb, you're pointing out how everyone needs a little common sense and understanding of the product, while you more or less point fingers at people who aren't doing something right or aren't following directions, while insinuating their lack of common sense.

Don't get defensive, because you are, whether you agree to that or not.

What YOU don't seem to get, is that the manufacturers of this product have it written all over their brochures, on their website and on the product's box, that it CAN be installed directly on basement floors without a vapor barrier. They say the product WON'T scratch and that any scuff mark can easily be washed off. Their information also claims that their glue will hold up to environmental moisture and that the entire product is "Waterproof".

Definition of WATERPROOF

: impervious to water; especially : covered or treated with a material (as a solution of rubber) to prevent permeation by water


This product CLAIMS to do, what you're saying everyone should understand what it obviously can't.

I think everyone knows it's limitations by now.

And it's the fact that the product fails to hold up to it's claims, that those who have problems with it, get their money back. IF the manufacturer didn't have these false claims, then I could see how someone would look clueless in trying to make the product do something that's beyond it's capabilities.

Look at it this way...

If GMC advertised that they had a new car that could fly in all conditions of weather and people bought it and later found out that it only flies well in a dry, windless environment... Would you still scoff at those who didn't see it coming, even though the manufacturer advertised differently?

If a manufacturer says a product can do something, it BETTER do what it's supposed to do, or else people are going to get angry and want their money back.

Hence, internet forums where people ask advice and get non-biased opinions based on their experiences with something, good or bad.

Now... If the manufacturer gave better indications of possible problems, UNLESS certain precautions were made in order to prevent seeing those problems, THEN people would be more forgiving.
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Old 03-25-2011, 02:55 AM   #33
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this is just a test reply, because after spending an hour replying to the last message, it didn't post after submitting it.
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Old 03-25-2011, 04:10 AM   #34
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damn, i lost over an hour of work replying to this previously! i won't spend an hour this time, so i apologize for brevity this time.

> never see an issue unless they admit that they didn't acclimate the product to the surrounding for 48 hours

that is just for thermal expansion purposes i believe. it should adjust to room temperature as you use it. i don't see anything special about "48 hours". i never did that, and had no problems.

> use a heavy roller to compress the glue joints.

if you must do that, your floor isn't flat, and you shouldn't be laying down this flooring - that is my thought. i never used any roller to compress the joints.

> Otherwise, a warm, dry environment with plenty of air circulation seems best.

it is not so simple as that, if that statement even makes sense concerning the flooring.

> But unless this product is placed on a concrete slab in the states of Arizona, Nevada, Texas, New Mexico (all the dry as sand states), then you're basically out of luck when it comes to putting this stuff down, directly on a concrete slab.

no, there is many variables: type of concrete, sealing on the outside, thickness of the concrete, sealing on the inside, temperature of the concrete, insulation, flooring underlayments, flatness of the concrete, etc.

> I live in Connecticut and there's no one in the entire New England area who doesn't have water movement under their slab. Whether they have a dry basement or not... You're still going to get moisture moving up through the concrete, which needs ventilation to keep down the musty smell, humid environment and dampness. I'm not talking about flowing water that's under pressure... I'm talking about simple ambient moisture that filters through a highly porous material, such as concrete.

it is not so simple. it depends on the quality of your construction and materials.

> Now, 2cb, you're pointing out how everyone needs a little common sense and understanding of the product, while you more or less point fingers at people who aren't doing something right or aren't following directions, while insinuating their lack of common sense. Don't get defensive, because you are, whether you agree to that or not.

yes that was my impression when i first read this thread.

> What YOU don't seem to get, is that the manufacturers of this product have it written all over their brochures, on their website and on the product's box, that it CAN be installed directly on basement floors without a vapor barrier.

i do not see that on my box or brochure. vinyl IS a vapor barrier. i don't see the purpose behind that statement.

> They say the product WON'T scratch and that any scuff mark can easily be washed off.

i do not see that on my box or brochure at all. in fact, since the flooring is just vinyl, with no surface coating, it will scratch as easily as any other vinyl.

> Their information also claims that their glue will hold up to environmental moisture and that the entire product is Waterproof.

i do not see that on my box or brochure at all. it only says "durable and water resistant", which is honest. it is a very thick vinyl that is very durable, and like all plastic, it is water resistant. if glue is an issue, you didn't do something right, because the glue should not be exposed. i would be more concerned about oxidation of any exposed glue, than water damage to the gummy glue. and the gummy glue is not water soluble .. ???

> Definition of WATERPROOF: impervious to water; especially : covered or treated with a material (as a solution of rubber) to prevent permeation by water/

the product literature doesn't say "waterproof". the literature says water resistant. but for all practical purposes, vinyl is waterproof, and so is the flooring. i have had puddles on mine for extended periods of time with no problem whatsoever.

> This product CLAIMS to do, what you're saying everyone should understand what it obviously can't.

i have seen no evidence of that.

> I think everyone knows it's limitations by now.

the limitations i see are buyer/installer inexperience. most comments i see here have little sense. i do not know what limitations you are talking about. the flooring works perfectly well on any flat floor. how can it not? the product is simply flat vinyl slabs. nothing more, nothing less.

> And it's the fact that the product fails to hold up to it's claims, that those who have problems with it, get their money back. IF the manufacturer didn't have these false claims, then I could see how someone would look clueless in trying to make the product do something that's beyond it's capabilities.

the only false claims i have seen are the ones you have made concerning the product. none of the claims you have made about the product's claims are to be found on my Allure box and brochure.

> Look at it this way ... If GMC advertised that they had a new car that could fly in all conditions of weather and people bought it and later found out that it only flies well in a dry, windless environment ... Would you still scoff at those who didn't see it coming, even though the manufacturer advertised differently?

that would be fraud, but i don't think i would fall for such blatant fraud, because i would inspect and test the product to my satisfaction before buying it. i don't see how this applies to the vinyl slabs. the Allure product does exactly what vinyl slabs do, and they are "durable and water resistant" as the packaging and brochures state. i do not see all the other claims you make about the product's claims.

> If a manufacturer says a product can do something, it BETTER do what it's supposed to do, or else people are going to get angry and want their money back.

i do not see any evidence of that. i only see evidence of people that want a quick thoughtless cheap fix to all their problems, buying and installing whole floors without even testing a sample of the product, and without having the experience and care to assess and prepare for proper flooring installation. and i see a lot of nonsense such as people claiming that the vinyl "warps" or "peels back". vinyl can't warp (except under high heat, eg, melting), and if it peels away, it can only mean that the subflooring isn't anything close to firm and flat. i certainly wouldn't want to buy any home from most of the DIYers i see. they think they can do anything someone without a college degree can do, but that is laughable. as an engineer and a laborer for many years, i have much more respect for the things that are involved in construction, and the truth is: most people aren't qualified or skilled enough to do any work on their homes, or anything else. it's mostly a product of our economy, and everyone wanting to save a penny, to cheap to pay people with professional experience. truly, it is IMPOSSIBLE for anyone without training and experience to do construction related work. it's like expecting people to repair jet engines. would you want to fly on a plane that is maintained by a DIYer? not much different than homes. people can only do things well with enough experience, and flooring tends to be a once-every-30-years kind of thing, a project where people can never get that experience.

> Hence, internet forums where people ask advice and get non-biased opinions based on their experiences with something, good or bad.

haha - all i see is bias. all i see is blame the vinyl manufacturer. i don't remember reading any posts where people were learning about their own lack of ability and experience. vinyl is just vinyl, and there is not much better or worse about Allure vinyl than any other vinyl. it is better because it is thicker and can be laid down without damaging with subflooring with glues (making it easier to remove/repair in the future), and worse because it has no special scratch-resistant surface coatings.

> Now ... If the manufacturer gave better indications of possible problems, UNLESS certain precautions were made in order to prevent seeing those problems, THEN people would be more forgiving.

well, as i read your post, i do appreciate that you seem like a kind person. but i hope you see, if you use critical thinking skills, that most everyone complaining are failures/inept at flooring. i haven't seen a single complaint that the Allure vinyl is not what vinyl should be. it is impossible/unimaginable for the flooring to have any problem with the glue/seams on a firm flat floor. vinyl neither creates moisture problems, nor solves them. some people people have good construction, some don't. Allure made none of the claims you claimed they made. and Allure makes no claim that the flooring is suitable for all subflooring and all conditions.
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Old 03-25-2011, 04:12 AM   #35
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accidental double-post removed.

Last edited by 2cb; 03-25-2011 at 04:15 AM. Reason: accidental double post
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Old 03-25-2011, 04:29 AM   #36
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the essence of all the complaints about Allure flooring is that watching Bob Villa (or whoever, i don't have a TV) do a construction project doesn't mean you can do it well.

construction is a mix of:

1. engineering skill/talent.

2. artistic skill/talent.

and i don't see any of those things in any of the complaints. mostly, "i threw down the floor, and now i have problems!" and it is amusing, except for the trouble it must be causing the stores and manufacturer, and the added expense this is going to cost everyone.
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Old 06-20-2011, 10:27 PM   #37
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I installed the tiles in a foyer over laminate a year ago, love it! No problems with popping etc, it is in foyer in apartment building, one scratch appears to be something metal slammed on it. Is to be expected in environment it was put in. Loved it so much so much I installed it myself in my hair salon, this was the long planks, teak color....looks amazing. Yes it smelled like vinyl for a few days, love the look, feel and clean up. My salon is in a very old building with very uneven everything, they were super easy to cut and install. started with the smallest room to see if I could do it myself, 10 x 12 room, done in 2 hours! Not bad for 50 year old woman. Super happy, am now planning on installing the tiles in new addition bathroom. Installing over solid floor, exterior grade plywood then hardiebacker board, ....just like they recommend. I am planning on grouting for first time, have high expectations based on my previous experiences with great product. Bedroom will be finished with the plank vinyl floating floor that I used in my salon. BTW, FYI I have real hardwood floors in my house, laminate, as well as tile in kitchen and bath, hands down like the teak floor better than all the rest, including real wood floor!
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Old 07-07-2012, 10:41 AM   #38
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Hello All...i was doing research on underlayment when using this product and found an oldpost of when i used it in my basement two years ago. Well, it's been four years since i installed it and no popped seams. I'm going to put in my entryway which currently has ceramic tile and was thinking of putting it right over that, but was curious if anyone else did and noticed any indentations where the grout joints were?
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Old 09-23-2012, 02:56 AM   #39
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Just FYI about installing Allure over concrete subfloor (from the HD installation instructions, September 2012):

-------------

6. Approved Subfloors:
 Concrete: Any large cracks or voids must be filled with a cementitious
patching/leveling compound. ( over 1/8” x 1/8”)

Please note: Allure is water resistant and will withstand holding water for
short periods of time if the product is installed properly. Allure is not flood
proof! Allure is not meant as water proofing material nor a solution for
moisture. Moisture intrusion is a totally different situation that can arise with new and old concrete that exhibits very high levels of hydrostatic pressure in combination with very high levels of alkalinity. This combination provides a substance that is highly corrosive. No floor covering including Allure can withstand the long term corrosive nature of this chemical. Hydro static pressure exceeding 8 lbs using the calcium chloride test method and or a P.H test indicates alkalinity levels in excess of 9, steps must be taken to separate Allure from the source of the corrosive effect of this chemical.

Excessive moisture in the subfloor can cause mold and mildew, and other moisture related issues including but not limited to trapping of the moisture emissions under Allure. Under these circumstances the concrete needs to be treated with a floor sealer that seals the concrete under the 8 lbs. or a moisture/vapor barrier (6 mil poly) is installed. This is necessary to avoid the corrosive effects. Newly poured concrete floors must cure for a minimum of 90 days. It is the responsibility of the home owner and the installer to make sure that any moisture or alkalinity issues are resolved prior to installing Allure.
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Old 09-23-2012, 11:00 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Margaret89 View Post
Just FYI about installing Allure over concrete subfloor (from the HD installation instructions, September 2012):

-------------

6. Approved Subfloors:
 Concrete: Any large cracks or voids must be filled with a cementitious
patching/leveling compound. ( over 1/8” x 1/8”)

Please note: Allure is water resistant and will withstand holding water for
short periods of time if the product is installed properly. Allure is not flood
proof! Allure is not meant as water proofing material nor a solution for
moisture. Moisture intrusion is a totally different situation that can arise with new and old concrete that exhibits very high levels of hydrostatic pressure in combination with very high levels of alkalinity. This combination provides a substance that is highly corrosive. No floor covering including Allure can withstand the long term corrosive nature of this chemical. Hydro static pressure exceeding 8 lbs using the calcium chloride test method and or a P.H test indicates alkalinity levels in excess of 9, steps must be taken to separate Allure from the source of the corrosive effect of this chemical.

Excessive moisture in the subfloor can cause mold and mildew, and other moisture related issues including but not limited to trapping of the moisture emissions under Allure. Under these circumstances the concrete needs to be treated with a floor sealer that seals the concrete under the 8 lbs. or a moisture/vapor barrier (6 mil poly) is installed. This is necessary to avoid the corrosive effects. Newly poured concrete floors must cure for a minimum of 90 days. It is the responsibility of the home owner and the installer to make sure that any moisture or alkalinity issues are resolved prior to installing Allure.
Good luck getting DIYers to read and follow directions.
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Old 09-23-2012, 11:22 AM   #41
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That's very condescending. They're reading this DIY board to find out how to do things, aren't they? I'm a DIY homeowner and I always read everything I can before I buy and before I install.
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Old 09-23-2012, 03:28 PM   #42
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Many of the DIYers that come here have already not followed directions and then come here to complain because things didn't turn out right. Any regular here will tell you that I have helped many DIYers. Last week a poster tried to tell me that Allure didn't need to be rolled, for example. When I posted the instructions from the mill that said it had to be rolled, they said it wasn't necessary. When it fails, they will be the first to complain and blame the product. And I will still be willing to try to help them fix it.
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Old 12-30-2013, 11:29 AM   #43
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Hi everyone,

Here's some information direct from Halstead, the manufacturer of allure:

There are issues that can occur when installing on concrete (especially basements). All subfloors must be carefully checked for moisture, as Allure ULTRA is waterproof but not a waterproofer. So any moisture problems need to be addressed prior to installation. We recommend 6 mil poly moisture vapor barrier, TrafficMaster Basement Proofer (available by special order only) or RedGard®.

When installing allure flooring in a basement, you must use a basement proofer or a 6 mil poly moisture barrier. If you are using a Tramex Moisture Meter and the level is 0%-2%, no moisture barrier is required. But if it is 2%-5%, a moisture barrier is required. Anything over 5% and we do not recommend installing allure flooring. Also, newly poured concrete floors must cure for a minimum of 90 days. It is the responsibility of the home owner and the installer to make sure that any moisture or alkalinity issues are resolved prior to installing allure.

If you are looking for more Allure support and installation information direct from the manufacturer, you can find it in their online support center: http://www.mydiygenius.com/articles/

Hope that helps!

~Aaron
Allure Customer Outreach Team
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Old 12-30-2013, 06:20 PM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allure_Guy View Post
Hi everyone,

Here's some information direct from Halstead, the manufacturer of allure:

There are issues that can occur when installing on concrete (especially basements). All subfloors must be carefully checked for moisture, as Allure ULTRA is waterproof but not a waterproofer. So any moisture problems need to be addressed prior to installation. We recommend 6 mil poly moisture vapor barrier, TrafficMaster Basement Proofer (available by special order only) or RedGard®.

When installing allure flooring in a basement, you must use a basement proofer or a 6 mil poly moisture barrier. If you are using a Tramex Moisture Meter and the level is 0%-2%, no moisture barrier is required. But if it is 2%-5%, a moisture barrier is required. Anything over 5% and we do not recommend installing allure flooring. Also, newly poured concrete floors must cure for a minimum of 90 days. It is the responsibility of the home owner and the installer to make sure that any moisture or alkalinity issues are resolved prior to installing allure.

If you are looking for more Allure support and installation information direct from the manufacturer, you can find it in their online support center: http://www.mydiygenius.com/articles/

Hope that helps!

~Aaron
Allure Customer Outreach Team
The first complaints posted here were in 2007, and so people are supposed to be impressed that you are offering help 6 YEARS later.
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Old 12-30-2013, 08:43 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rusty baker View Post
The first complaints posted here were in 2007, and so people are supposed to be impressed that you are offering help 6 YEARS later.
You're right, Rusty, we regret that it has taken so long to find this online forum and help people on here. You've been in this forum for a long time (2009) and with over 3,400 posts it is clear that you are dedicated to using your knowledge as a professional flooring installer to help educate DIY'ers. I bet a lot of people have been and are still being helped by posts you published years ago. That's what's great about the internet...people can refer to these posts for guidance long after they are posted. In fact they search and refer to these old posts for guidance to this very day!

We want to do the same as you...educate people so that they get the job done right. We want people to enjoy the results of a successful allure flooring project. Whether people are impressed or not that allure is reaching out to help them through a sea of DIY forums and blogs on the internet is up to them.

What really matters most to us appears to be the same thing that matters most to you... that DIY'ers have the knowledge they need to complete a successful DIY project and enjoy their great new floor to the fullest.

Thanks again for all that you do on here, Rusty. We appreciate it. If you should ever have any questions, or would like to contact me, please don't hesitate to send me a private message. Working together, I think we can really help a lot of people on here avoid disasters and get the job done right.

Best regards,

~Aaron
Allure Customer Outreach Team

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